Track building methods and costs

[polybear]

Many thanks Martin

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...-of-timbers-in-a-complete-templot-layout.748/

I just tested it on your part-finished "Downingham" Track Plan (attached) and was surprised to learn that it already accounts for 200ft of C/Clad (£183 at Marcway prices) plus in excess of 3500 Vero pins (probably nearer 4000 as Turnout Timbers often require more than 2 pins) - so £150 at RS Components prices.
Now bearing in mind the plan isn't finished then it's easy to see that these figures could quite easily double.
I've not added the Rail yet (in excess of 104ft).

All in all, a very useful feature in Templot - many thanks for including it.

Kind Regards,
Brian.

 

[Hayfield]

Brian

The world of track building has changed a lot from the days we could buy a SMP copper clad point for a few shillings. Looking at copperclad, at one time the cost was quite low as in a lot of cases it used sheets/ parts of sheet surplus to commercial electronic production. In short it was a cheap alternative

Fast forward to 10 to 15 years ago and modern CAD design production of PCB boards and these surplus materials are not available any more. Plus the massive rise in raw materials we have seen in the past 10 years and in fact it can be seen as one of the dearest methods available to us

Earlier in the year I paid Marcway about £25 for a fret of 25 305mm milled single sided timbers. At the last show I attended a pack of C&L (220mm x 20) cost £33. So prices are still spiralling

For some time now given the prices of materials flexi track is the most cost effective for plain track, for the home track builder on a cost basis using either ply or plastic timbers and plastic chairs are now the most cost effective way to produce turnouts and crossings. With Exactoscale parts from either Scale 4 or EMGS stores. Some still use copperclad timbers at strategic places if they feel a need to fettle as they build

The world is now changing with 3D printing coming to the fore, yes it does need an initial investment, but when you add up the cost of buying track either RTR or in kit/component form the cost will probably be cheaper being printed, especially if the club owns the printers, or a user group is formed.

May not be the answer you require but the days of building in copperclad has become very expensive.

3D printing is opening up a lot of opportunities, firstly as far as trackwork is concerned far more detailed and accurate, secondly unlimited options and finally cost effective

 

[polybear]

Hi John,

18ft (5.48m) of Marcway 3mm wide x 1.2mm thick laser cut C/C is £18.00 (= £3.28 per metre; if you buy 25ft of it the price drops to £3.05/metre); the C&L price for their nearest equivalent, 3.3mm x 1mm costs £33.49 for 4.4m (= £7.61 per metre) - so over twice the price.....
OK, so Marcway is a fraction undersize for 00, though I'd defy anyone to spot 0.3mm without measuring it; I'm unsure if its single or double sided though both are laser cut.

I realise that using plastic-based flexi would be significantly cheaper (certainly the price of SMP/Marcway Flexi is very attractive, though the sleepers are only 0.8mm thick); however (and feel free to call me cynical ) I have my doubts as regards the life expectancy of such trackwork in, say, 15 or 20+ years' time. At this point I'm sure there will be those who'll come forward to say that their layout has (say) C&L trackwork that's 20 years old with no signs of deterioration; my response would be as follows:

1. C&L has had at least three owners in that period (though this in itself may well not be an issue)
2. Tooling and designs have changed
3. Quite possibly the moulding company has changed, perhaps several times.
4. Can you be 100% sure the plastic used is identical over that period? Many plastics in recent years have included recycled material, for example - modellers have experienced issues with (I think) both Dapol and Parkside Dundas kits as a result.
5. Some have reported that unused K&L Chairs they had stored away have been found to have degraded and gone brittle - and that was out of the light and with no exposure to any paints/chemicals etc. we often use.

I have been experimenting with ply sleepers, but just can't get on with threading chairs onto rail (I find Exactoscale particularly difficult, despite deburring/filing a taper on the rail end. It's not for me.

Ply and rivet? Fitting the chairs is a pain (and some) as the rivet head needs filing/grinding to get the chair half to fit.

So that leaves copper-clad. Yes, the chairs have to be fitted - but the head of a Vero Pin is smaller than the rivets used for ply based trackwork and (as long as care is taken in their positioning) fit with no filing etc. required.

3d printing is very interesting but I don't think it's for me as the chairs again need to be threaded on the rail (see above) and I'd have concerns (right or wrong) about life expectancy again.

Kind Regards,
Brian

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Brian,
The latest Templot designed Plug Track loose jaw chairs do not have to be threaded onto the rail. Yuo simply drop the rail onto the chair seats and slot the loose jaws into the chair to hold the rail.
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

as the chairs again need to be threaded on the rail

@polybear

Hi Brian,

No they don't. The loose jaws option is now the default. Which means the chairs don't get threaded onto the rail. Nor does the rail need to be chamfered at the end to permit it.

Fitting the loose jaws is a bit fiddly, but you soon get used to it -- the time taken is easily cancelled out by the time saved not threading chairs.

Another advantage is that dropper wires can be invisibly attached to the underside of the rail in advance. The deep plug track timbers mean that bare droppers can be bent at 90 degrees to run between them to the edge of the track for the layout connections. All lost under the ballast:

https://85a.uk/templot/companion/plug_track.php

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

Brian

I have both Scaleway and C&L track going back to the late 70's, neither have suffered ill effect but they have been indoors and out of sight.

True C&L have had 4 owners since then if not 5 as it started out as K&L, Scaleway is now owned by Marcway. Certainly now Phil keeps a close eye on what material the extruders use. The issue with brittle chairs apparently is the plastic being too hot when extruded, whilst Phil cannot be held responsible for stock he has not sold, he is happy to replace faulty products he may have sold

The Scaleway strip I brought was 4mm turnout strip C&C cut, cannot see that they are advertising sleeper strip, but have 3mm for TT
http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?col=head&name=PCB

The new C&L flexitrack has 1.6mm thick sleepers so is far more stable than SMP and early thin track base

There is a knack to threading chairs but some chairs on the Exactoscale sprue are looser, any miss formed should be returned.

I accept the thoughts for ply and rivet, there is a knack in doing it

I have one of Wayne's turnouts for some time and its still stable despite not being painted

As you can tell I am totally sold on C&L and Exactoscale parts, since Scaleforum and after having one of Wayne's kits I am happy with 3D printing which has been around for years and just gets better

Still each to their own as long as you are enjoying yourself, that's all that matters

 

[polybear]

.........whilst Phil cannot be held responsible for stock he has not sold, he is happy to replace faulty products he may have sold

That's good to know, though the concern I (and I thing most of us would have) is not the cost of the product but the effect of having to lift and replace it all on a (perhaps fully finished) layout.

The Scaleway strip I brought was 4mm turnout strip C&C cut, cannot see that they are advertising sleeper strip, but have 3mm for TT
http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?col=head&name=PCB

There's actually two websites for Marcway - the one you (and I) found comes up in the Google Search List; the one to use is the one on the right of the search page under the photo of the Shop - click on the "Website" box under the photo and you'll get this:

http://www.marcway.net/marcway/

Click on the "Marcway Pointwork" Tab and then click the "Marcway PCB" Box to get a better listing of products with prices.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[Rob Manchester]

Brian,

What about Peco Finescale Bullhead flexi track ? RRP at Peco is £5.42 as seen here and that includes sleepers, rail and chairs....

Don't know the dimensions of sleepers etc but it is nice looking track and I can't see Peco selling track that is going to degrade within our lifetime. Some dealers offer a discount, especially for boxes of track.

Rob

 

[polybear]

Thanks Rob; Mike Edge (Judith Edge Kits) is using Peco rail (B/H) for the first time - his layout "Wentworth Junction on RMWeb uses it in conjunction with C/Clad Turnouts (the rail is lifted clear of the timbering using plates that Mike had etched specially - they're not as detailed as the Masokits system but a huge amount less work. Mike did mention that the Peco Flexi "certainly looks much stronger than SMP or C&L".

I do seem to recall mention somewhere that the rail profile may not be a true B/H though (I could be wrong); I've no idea on sleeper length or spacing either. I'd imagine that the latest C&L is probably the most correct offering at present, with Exactoscale bases coming in second. Certainly the length of SMP rail I have (probably 15 years old) is less detailed - there's no keys on the chairs, for example (though it really needs looking for).

Brian

 

[Hayfield]

Thanks Rob; Mike Edge (Judith Edge Kits) is using Peco rail (B/H) for the first time - his layout "Wentworth Junction on RMWeb uses it in conjunction with C/Clad Turnouts (the rail is lifted clear of the timbering using plates that Mike had etched specially - they're not as detailed as the Masokits system but a huge amount less work. Mike did mention that the Peco Flexi "certainly looks much stronger than SMP or C&L".

I do seem to recall mention somewhere that the rail profile may not be a true B/H though (I could be wrong); I've no idea on sleeper length or spacing either. I'd imagine that the latest C&L is probably the most correct offering at present, with Exactoscale bases coming in second. Certainly the length of SMP rail I have (probably 15 years old) is less detailed - there's no keys on the chairs, for example (though it really needs looking for).

Brian

Brian

I have not held Peco Bullhead flexitrack, but I assume its much the same as their other flexitrack, which I hold for strength purposes in the same region as either Exactoscale Fasttrack bases of C&L new bases. (in 00 gauge thin based flexitrack is no longer available, it is in P4 & EM if required)

As for comparing the new thicker C&L bases with SMP is totally inaccurate and wrong as its been updated. As you have said the new track is far more detailed than any other flexitrack on the market, it is highly likely Peco is slightly stronger as the rail is still flatbottom .

The choice over what is better will be personal and perhaps more according to being easier to obtain and financial. Peco has the advantage of both bulk buying the materials to reduce costs and its retail supply train

Its a pity it has taken Peco so long to fully support 4mm scale, and in my opinion it seems prompted by another large company considering joining the market, rather than modellers needs.

 

[Hayfield]

It seems we as modellers are quite stayed in our thoughts about modelling. ABS extruded track and track parts have been here for years and have in all most all cases been stable and long lived.

Thinking back to when I restarted building track for some strange reason we all were concerned about possible gauging issues in critical areas such as common crossings. Why I have no idea, as once the joints have set (with plastic timbers) they wont move. The gauging issues were all caused in the building process and if you made mistakes with the process in either of the soldering processes, the result would be the same

I have to say the strength of copperclad is probably the strongest, unless through fettling the joint the foil delaminates. As for ply and rivet I have memories of rivets rusting, joints failing and (half) chairs falling off.

I am not having a go at anyone using any of the track methods. Just saying they all have their failings. As for 3D printing it will suffer from detractors as every other method has. Yes its in its infancy, but what we are seeing in its development is the fantastic opportunities its capable of. Perhaps its biggest hurdles in the short term will be access to the prints and perhaps a working prototype layout. Also I see perhaps the benefits of both threaded chairs and plug chairs being used in conjunction with each other, but this may be a hang over from what I know and rely on

 

[polybear]

As for ply and rivet I have memories of rivets rusting, joints failing and (half) chairs falling off.

Fortunately the rivets are brass now, so that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Perhaps its biggest hurdles in the short term will be access to the prints and perhaps a working prototype layout. Also I see perhaps the benefits of both threaded chairs and plug chairs being used in conjunction with each other, but this may be a hang over from what I know and rely on

Do you know of a layout being built using 3d printed trackwork yet?

Cheers,
Brian

 

[Phil O]

I think that the biggest problem with chaired track was/is that using gauges is people gripped the rail including the foot which meant that when the gauges were removed after gluing, the rail sprung inwards, due to the cant in the chairs, thereby reducing the gauge. Not a problem with soldered track.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I think that the biggest problem with chaired track was/is that using gauges is people gripped the rail including the foot which meant that when the gauges were removed after gluing, the rail sprung inwards, due to the cant in the chairs, thereby reducing the gauge. Not a problem with soldered track.

Nor with 3D plug track, because:

1. the rail is vertical in the chairs.

2. no track gauges are needed.

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Do you know of a layout being built using 3d printed trackwork yet?

Yes.
Michael Woods in S scale
There are a couple of others in P4 that I know off, but at the planning stage.
I am still "experimenting" with methods & materials before actual commencement of a layout.
We just have to be patient and await further chair types for crossings and slips etc.
Don't forget that once installed on a layout and painted these components will have more UV protection.

At least we all know how to determine the number of timbers & chairs in our templates.
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Don't forget that once installed on a layout and painted these components will have more UV protection.

Anycubic claims 3 years outdoors unpainted for their water-washable ABS-Like resin, so I think indoors painted they should be good for many years.

It is now 3 weeks since I tried the water-washable resin for the chairs:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/post-7844

So I've had another look at them. I can confirm they are equally resistant to soldering temperatures for long enough for all normal soldering tasks. They seem a little stronger/tougher than the Elegoo resin chairs, but it is difficult to quantify. The clip fit tangs seem a bit tougher, so slightly more force is needed to clip-fit them into the FDM bases, but not enough difference to matter. The rafts have curled rather more than the Elegoo rafts, but again not enough to matter. It may be possible to prevent this by giving the undersides more (or less?) curing time.

More evidence that it is a bit stronger is that the loose jaws seem more firmly attached to the supports. It is possible to wash them and blast them dry without needing any special care, or losing any.

Martin.

 

[Hayfield]

I think that the biggest problem with chaired track was/is that using gauges is people gripped the rail including the foot which meant that when the gauges were removed after gluing, the rail sprung inwards, due to the cant in the chairs, thereby reducing the gauge. Not a problem with soldered track.

This goes for anyone using the incorrect gauge whatever scale or gauge

With both C&L and Exactoscale when both businesses changed hands there was little or no attempt to ensure the correct gauges were both available and that there was published information that these chairs needed gauges which allowed the head to rotate in the gauge

Early gauges provided both by Exactoscale and C&L allowed for this but I don't think owners emphasised the need for them or even understood the need. Certainly when funds allowed Phil at C&L had all 4 mm gauges altered and are compliant

I am a member of the EMGS and they still sell sets which I believe are for soldered track (the gauges grip the rail too tight) , I think the same goes for Scalefour Society. Sadly both societies failed to continue to sell the (modern) Exactoscale gauges

Too little information about this is still unavailable

 

[Hayfield]

Fortunately the rivets are brass now, so that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

That only resolves rusting, joints still fail and chairs fall off

Do you know of a layout being built using 3d printed trackwork yet?

Cheers,
Brian

You have hit the nail on the head, initially I think there needs to be a test track(s) as layouts take years to build, simply to show what it looks like, but more importantly shows it works. Nothing elaborate just a simple working exhibit

 

[Martin Wynne]

This goes for anyone using the incorrect gauge whatever scale or gauge

With both C&L and Exactoscale when both businesses changed hands there was little or no attempt to ensure the correct gauges were both available and that there was published information that these chairs needed gauges which allowed the head to rotate in the gauge

Early gauges provided both by Exactoscale and C&L allowed for this but I don't think owners emphasised the need for them or even understood the need. Certainly when funds allowed Phil at C&L had all 4 mm gauges altered and are compliant

I am a member of the EMGS and they still sell sets which I believe are for soldered track (the gauges grip the rail too tight) , I think the same goes for Scalefour Society. Sadly both societies failed to continue to sell the (modern) Exactoscale gauges

Too little information about this is still unavailable

All of which goes back to the crazy idea that small-scale models can be built with inclined rail. To hold rail inclined where it is curved and bent requires heavy castings, not flimsy bits of plastic. Making bends in inclined rail requires a conical mandrel so that the rail head can be bent to a different radius from the rail foot. None of which is feasible at 4mm/ft and probably not in 7mm/ft. What makes this even crazier is that the one place where you might actually see whether rail is inclined or not would be at the exposed ends of the check rails -- but prototype check rails are vertical.

Templot plug track gets round these problems in two ways:

1. the rail is vertical throughout. Inclining it just can't work, so I didn't even try.

2. the rail is gripped in the chairs by means of the key only -- just like the prototype. It is not gripped at the rail foot -- just like the prototype. This reduces stress on the chair base and allows the rail to take up a natural line through curves and bends.


You can see in this chair -- it's GWR / BR(W) -- that the inner (gauging) jaw wraps around the rail foot, but the outer jaw does not:

(If it did it would be impossible to drop the rail into the chair.)

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

Prior to replacing real bullhead rail, we rest the web on the inner jaw and then stick a bar in a fishplate bolt hole and twist. On straight track the rail will just drop in, on tightly curved track it's necessary to restrain the rail at various places along the length, away from the end being twisted, to stop the rail climbing out of the jaws of the chairs.

That took me longer to describe, than do.