N Gauge Plug Track

[RBTKraisee]

This week I only just became aware of this truly amazing Plug Track feature thanks to the Bexhill West video on YouTube - and what a revelation it is!! Thank you Martin, for all the hard work you continue to do for this community!

I'm trying to use this in N gauge, so I'm having a few issues with the plug and/or snap versions, because the chairs are extraordinarily small, fiddly and ultra-delicate. I think they are aimed at larger scales, but I think N scale users may need a little extra help.

I was wondering if there is a way to configure Templot to simply create the timbers without the plug holes, with the chairs all integrated directly into them, and just missing the rails? By adjusting the hidden Settings > Rail options to create just enough clearance, it should be easy to simply slot the rails in (Code 55 or better still; Code 40) rather like the newer British Finescale track bases do?

The issue of resin warping isn't as much of a problem for N scale track because it's half the length of a OO equivalent!

It certainly helps that I'm mix my normal resins with 15% Siraya Tenacious to reduce the brittleness, and in my experience, this mixture also warps a lot less than most others - track bases I printed 2 years ago still have zero warping in them, even without the rails fitted!

So this general approach has actually worked really well with my own custom CAD drawings - but it is a vast amount of work to custom-design each turnout and crossing that way. If I could persuade Templot to just output an STL of everything except the rails, it would save days (maybe weeks!) of CAD work on each layout I make, and that would be such a massive game changer for me!

Again, thanks for everything you do Martin!

Ross.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Ross

Welcome to Templot Club.

I'm unable to answer the question, but others may be along later who may be able to help.

Martin is currently in hospital, following a fall on Sunday, so he's unable to reply, at this time, we're hoping that he has a speedy recovery and get back to Templot, soon.

I do know however that the timbers can be printed without the holes, so it may be possible to print a sleeper or timber with chairs.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,

Yes you can print the chairs integral with the base minus just the rails.

More info to follow
STeve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,
Having switched on experimental chairing, real > chairing/3-D > chair jaw options on this template

click export all chairs with solid outer jaws and keys, then apply changes to get:-

store the control template to the background, then click the DXF / STL file export button, and then click on the show settings button.
Click on the newly revealed 3-D for resin printer radio button in the right hand export format window.
Click on the layers tab, then right click on the rails , 2-d colour field to set it blank (means dont export rails)
Click on the supports tab, then untick the "include chair supports" tick box.

Then click on the Preview 3-D export button and you should get something like this:

To show what you will get when you export for real.

I have not covered setting the rail profile which you will have to perform for your chosen rail.

Hope this helps
Steve

 

[RBTKraisee]

Hi Phil,
I saw the news about Martin in the other topic and sent him my well wishes. My better half had a bad accident last year, so I think I understand Martin's situation all too well. But with a good diet and the right balance between rest and exercise he will hopefully make a full recovery soon!

Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation. I think it was the layers/rails and the include chairs support options which were still confusing me!

I have two remaining - minor - issues still...

1) When I make the STL, the two separate chairs between the timbers that hold the frog, still have a tall structure under them (might be a clip?). I've been able to easily trim that off in Fusion 360 though.

2) I'm still trying to find an option to fill all the holes in the timbers. As my first test print (see image below) of a simple B6 turnout in N gauge came out great, even with the holes, but I worry about the strength of the chairs and being able to fill them would make them stronger underneath.

Cheers,

Ross.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Ross,

As you may have read, Martin has been released from hospital and is back home. Having chatted with him at the Zoom meeting, he's in good spirits, but only one handed.

He has a lot of correspondence to wade through and it will take him several days to get through it, but he will respond, when he can. He's aware of your questions.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,
Sorry I should have suggested that you also go to the  chairs tab and select press fit rather than clip  fit chairs.
Can you try that.
Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,
Also you need to tick the blind sockets option on the layers tab

this gets rid of the holes on the bottom of the timbers.
Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,

The two extra bits of chair that you are deleting in Fusion 360 are I believe the NX and the NC pieces depicted in this diagram that Martin posted a lot earlier in the experimental thread.

and an earlier diagram

The idea being that you slide the point rail into the AA chair, then slide the splice rail in against the point rail, then glue part NC in place to wedge the splice & point rail together, before adding the wing rails.
You will need to cut the wing rails so that you can slide these in and butt them together at the XA chair like the Finetrax turnouts

Normally the NC and NX parts get printed on the chair rafts with the separate chairs.
I cannot find a way of suppressing the export of these two components

I dont think Martin expected anyone to try plugtrack in N gauge!
Steve

edited to add link to Martin's original post:-
https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/post-7097

 

[RBTKraisee]

Hi Ross,

As you may have read, Martin has been released from hospital and is back home. Having chatted with him at the Zoom meeting, he's in good spirits, but only one handed.

He has a lot of correspondence to wade through and it will take him several days to get through it, but he will respond, when he can. He's aware of your questions.

Thanks Phil! I actually think Steve has gone a huge way towards solving most of my questions already!

Although, being able to delete the NX and NC lower structures that Steve has identified, may be something I'll need to ask Martin to have a gander at - but only when he is feeling much better and has had a chance to catch up with everything else!

I've got four layouts with about 700 meters of track to build in N gauge over the next two years. I didn't know how I was ever going to afford it if I went down the Peco or British Finescale paths, but with this feature each of my turnouts will now costs me only £4.

Martin has already saved me thousands, so I can't say a big enough thank you to him, and I look forward to being able to thank him personally, once he has gotten better!

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Steve, you are amazing!

Thank you so much for helping to identify all these issues - and find solutions for them.

I've only been in the club for a day, but this place - and the people here - really are awesome!

I have a new print running over night with these additional settings and hopefully everything (excepting the NX/NC structures) will be all perfect.

Thank you!

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Regarding the NX and NC supports; they can be changed!

In Settings > Supports > Chair Supports you can adjust the height of the pyramids under the chairs. For my N gauge setup here I experimented and found setting "Chair support pyramid height" to 0.22 mm results in all the pyramids - including those under the NX and NC chairs - being exactly flush with the bottom of the timbers!

I also reduced "Loose-jaw support pyramid height" to 0.1mm, so that they will extend into, but never below the timbers. Probably not necessary, but it felt like a good idea.

And it turns out that the normal flanges around the bottom of the timbers, together with the natural 'foot' created by the printer, are wide enough to touch the two separate pyramid supports, so the NX and NC chairs are held in precisely the correct position when the print is done too! I did adjust the flange thickness down to 0.25mm though, so that they will definitely get covered when I come to ballasting.

So, at least for this initial test of a simple B6 turnout, I *think* we've solved all of the issues for making this work in N!

I'll upload a picture of the next print when it's ready, tomorrow. Then I'll get started on some more complex elements like diamonds and slips

Thank you Steve and all!

Ross.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Regarding the NX and NC supports; they can be changed!

In Settings > Supports > Chair Supports you can adjust the height of the pyramids under the chairs. For my N gauge setup here I experimented and found setting "Chair support pyramid height" to 0.22 mm results in all the pyramids - including those under the NX and NC chairs - being exactly flush with the bottom of the timbers!

I also reduced "Loose-jaw support pyramid height" to 0.1mm, so that they will extend into, but never below the timbers. Probably not necessary, but it felt like a good idea.

And it turns out that the normal flanges around the bottom of the timbers, together with the natural 'foot' created by the printer, are wide enough to touch the two separate pyramid supports, so the NX and NC chairs are held in precisely the correct position when the print is done too! I did adjust the flange thickness down to 0.25mm though, so that they will definitely get covered when I come to ballasting.

So, at least for this initial test of a simple B6 turnout, I *think* we've solved all of the issues for making this work in N!

I'll upload a picture of the next print when it's ready, tomorrow. Then I'll get started on some more complex elements like diamonds and slips

Thank you Steve and all!

Ross.

@RBTKraisee

hi ross

welcome to templot club

thank you for your good wishes when i was in hospital recently.

NX and NC are spacer blocks which fit between the wing rails and vee rails on each side of the A chair.

if not wanted they can be switched off by going to real > chairing/ 3d > A chair > and untick the bottom two items in the sub-menu.

that will change the control template, you must then store that template as a background template in order to export it for 3d.

other members can explain more. my apologies for the one-finger typing which i'm finding exhausting and need to stop

@Steve_Cornford

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Welcome to the club by the way!
As Martin would say "this is still all experimental" , mental being the operative word in n gauge!

I would recomend that you thoroughly clean your rail with something like IPA to get rid of any residual dirt from the manufacturing and packaging process, especially as you will be sliding it through the chair jaws.
What rail are you using by the way?
It would be really usefull feedback for Martin if you could screen capture your rail settings window from the export dialogue & post here.

Steve

 

[RBTKraisee]

hi ross

welcome to templot club

thank you for your good wishes when i was in hospital recently.

NX

Thank you Martin!

Please make sure to look after yourself and only come back when you're really up to it. Don't rush it. Read some books, watch some movies. Try to enjoy the time off

I wish you a speedy recovery!

Ross.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,
Just to let you know that the PlugTrack chairs necessary for diamonds and slips are not available yet.
You might have to make do with the kits available from elsewhere, which I beleive are excellent.
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

@RBTKraisee

see my previous which i have now edited: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/n-gauge-plug-track-question.781/post-8956

martin.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Welcome to the club by the way!
As Martin would say "this is still all experimental" , mental being the operative word in n gauge!

I would recomend that you thoroughly clean your rail with something like IPA to get rid of any residual dirt from the manufacturing and packaging process, especially as you will be sliding it through the chair jaws.
What rail are you using by the way?
It would be really usefull feedback for Martin if you could screen capture your rail settings window from the export dialogue & post here.

Steve

I'll be using Code 40 Bull Head Rail from 2mm Scale Association for my Glenfinnan Viaduct and Goathland-ish exhibition layouts, and for the fictitious dual-track heritage branch line on my home layout and for most of the hidden sections.

I'm happy to wait until this 3D print capability has eventually expanded to include Flat Bottom Rail and then I'll be able to do my King's Cross exhibition layout and the main 4-track section on my home layout.

I figure I've got about 5 years of work ahead of me on all of it

And good idea on the IPA on the rails themselves, although it can promote oxidisation on NS, so I think I'll probably give them a coating of NO-OX-ID after the IPA, before inserting them.

Ross.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,

Good Info from Martin as always
Untick the bottom two item on the A menu.
Voila

Steve

ps if you print your templates out on a colour printer, there is extra detail printed that is jolly usefull.
eg where the set bend should go, and the alignment points for knuckle bends, switch blades, V rails nose.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

How about white spirit or methylated spirits?

Would the NO-OX-ID act as a lubricant?
If not apply after assembly.
Are you planning on painting?
Steve

 

[RBTKraisee]

Thanks

@RBTKraisee

see my previous which i have now edited: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/n-gauge-plug-track-question.781/post-8956

martin.

Thanks Martin!

And Steve, yes you make an excellent point. The colours on Templot's prints have already been useful to me when laying my various bits of test track!

I have to go off to sleep now (4:21am and I've got to get up by 9) so I can't take screen shots of the settings I'm using, but here is the text checklist procedure that I've made while doing all of this. It identifies everything I have needed to do - so far!

Ross.

---=== Templot 3D Print Settings for N Gauge Turnouts ===---

1. Real > Rails > No Rails
2. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Experimental Chairing
3. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Chair jaw options on this template ...
a. Export all chairs with solid outer jaws and keys
b. Apply Changes
4. Real > Chairing / 3-D > A Chair
a. With Crossing Gap Spacer = UNCHECKED if don't require NX chair under frog
b. With Vee Spacer / Nose Clamp = UNCHECKED if don't require NC chair under frog
5. Save track to Background
6. Background > Templates (Open Storage Box)
7. Delete any irrelevant templates
8. DXF / STL file export ...
9. Reset All - CAD 2D / 3D
10. Show Settings:
a. Layers:
i. Blind Sockets = TICKED
b. Export:
i. 3-D for Resin Printer :
ii. Set Shrinkage Values as Needed
c. Rail:
i. Set custom rail dimensions as needed
d. Timbers:
i. Timbering Sizes ... :
3-D full timber depth (thickness) = 1.67 mm (default = 1.67 mm)
3-D timber web / flange depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D timber side flange width = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
3-D timber end flange width = 0.86 mm (default = 0.86 mm)
3-D timber web integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D timber flange integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D width of rebate around sockets = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D depth of rebate around sockets = 0.06 mm (default = 0.06 mm)
OK
ii. Brick splints / slabs ... :
3-D brick splints depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D brick splints width = 1.54 mm (default = 1.54 mm)
3-D brick slabs depth (thickness) = 0.49 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS SETS
3-D brick label tab width = 2.57 mm (default = 2.57 mm)
3-D brick label tab text height = 0.31 mm (default = 0.31 mm)
OK
iii. Brick connector clips ... :
3-D connector clip overall depth (thickness) = 1.00 mm (default = 1.80 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D connector clip bottom depth (thickness) = 0.36 mm (default = 0.36 mm)
3-D connector clip bottom offset = 0.30 mm (default = 0.30 mm)
3-D connector tommy bar corner relief = 0.08 mm (default = 0.08 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar end clearance = 0.00 mm (default = 0.00 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar side clearance = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D connector clip hole size = 1.00 mm (default = 1.00 mm)
OK
iv. Brick sprues ... :
3-D sprue depth (thickness) = 0.50 mm (default = 0.99 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D sprue length = 3.09 mm (default = 3.09 mm)
3-D sprue width = 0.69 mm (default = 0.69 mm)
3-D sprue runner width = 1.37 mm (default = 1.37 mm)
OK
e. Supports:
i. Include chair supports = TICKED
ii. CLIP - fit = SELECTED
iii. Chair Supports ... :
Chair support pyramid height = 0.22 mm (default = 3.00 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Chair support pyramid top inset from centre = 0.34 mm (default = 0.34 mm)
Chair support pyramid top end inset from plug = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
Loose-jaw support pyramid height = 0.10 mm (default = 1.00 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
OK
11. Export DXF / STL File > Save
12. Open STL in 3D Builder
13. Import and Repair the file.

 

[RBTKraisee]

How about white spirit or methylated spirits?

Would the NO-OX-ID act as a lubricant?
If not apply after assembly.
Are you planning on painting?
Steve

Hi Steve,
NO-OX-ID is an electrical contact grease, so it probably would act as a light lubricant. But the real reason I want to use it before inserting the rails is to add a barrier layer against oxidisation, and if I can get some on the hidden bits in addition to the visible ones, that's a "nice to have".

I'll be painting, definitely. In addition to airbrushing a basic timber colour, I'm going to experiment with painting the chairs and the rails, both before and after fitting the rails and see how both techniques work. I suspect painting the chairs before will be better, but painting the rails before may result in the paint being scraped off during the insertion process. We shall see! And then the whole thing will also get appropriate weathering coats over the top, after ballasting.

Anyway, attached are some higher resolution pics my latest print of a simple B6 using the settings above, and I think it's absolutely perfect!!

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

A little bit of an update...

I've been experimenting with rails sourced from the 2mm Scale Association and I'm still refining the precise tolerances to use to get the best results, but so far things have been working really nicely indeed!

One of the tricks the 2mm guys use (and I'm sure others do similar in other scales) is to file down the tops of the guard/check rails and the wing rails just a little bit - about 0.25 to 0.5mm in this case - so that they are very slightly lower than the running rails. That way they can paint them grimy colours to look more prototypical, and the paint won't get scraped off when the rest of the track is cleaned. Clever, eh?

Anyway, I haven't yet figured out a way to get Templot to include just those specific bits in the print, with the tops of the rails lowered the way I need, so I've taken to loading the STL's (without rails) generated by Templot into SolidWorks (you could use any other CAD instead) and adding these sections of "lower" rail directly into the part to be printed - and again, so far, I'm getting great results with my initial experiments.

Early days still, but I'm going to experiment further as time allows (hopefully a good chunk of time around Xmas) and once I'm happy with the results, I'll share pictures and my process for others to benefit from.

I freakin' LOVE this program!

Ross.

 

[Martin Wynne]

One of the tricks the 2mm guys use (and I'm sure others do similar in other scales) is to file down the tops of the guard/check rails and the wing rails just a little bit - about 0.25 to 0.5mm in this case - so that they are very slightly lower than the running rails. That way they can paint them grimy colours to look more prototypical, and the paint won't get scraped off when the rest of the track is cleaned. Clever, eh?

@RBTKraisee

Hi Ross,

I'm not entirely convinced of the wisdom of that in functional terms -- check rails serve an important function and the prototype sometimes raises them above the running rail, not lower them.

But if you want to do it, this idea might work:

Unticking those 2 boxes will remove the seat from under the check rail:

Then if you inserted the check rail upside down, possibly with some glue, the top surface would be lower than the running rail.

Not tried or tested, and not a good idea in my opinion -- but it's your railway.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[RBTKraisee]

That's a really interesting approach Martyn, thanks for suggesting it!

End of year work commitments mean I won't get much opportunity to experiment with this until the Xmas hols, but I'll report my findings here, once I've tried this out!

Templot really has got an astonishing number of features and settings, I learn more every time I come here and I'm certain I've hardly scratched the surface so far. And I thought designing rocket engines was complicated!

Cheers,

Ross.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ross,

Any chance you could post a screen shot of your custom rail settings for the 2mm association code 40 rail on here, as there are now a couple of other Templotters attempting N gauge?

Steve

 

[RBTKraisee]

Steve,
I haven't refined my settings for these yet, so you're going to need to experiment for yourself. For now I've simply used:

For "set custom rail" I used the 2mm published figures; section height 1.04mm and head width 0.545mm (same for bottom width). The real rails are right on the money. I left the other settings as default.

I then used "3D rail adjustments:" > "rail fit - fine adjust (+/- %)" of 5%.

I haven't experimented with the "crossing..." & "check-rail flangeway fine adjusts" yet. I also haven't played with "gap for gauge widening" or "extra clearance at open switch blades".

I'm really hoping to get some free time to play with some of these over the Xmas hols. If you get to play with them first, please share your results!

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

So my Xmas period was still really busy and I didn't get much chance to play with this, but my latest order of Code 40 bullhead rail did arrive here in Florida from 2mm Scale Association, and I have finally got around to trying to adjust size settings to suit.

My first test was using the track bases that I had printed last year, using the default Templot settings. They definitely did not have sufficient space for the 2mmSA rails and I broke a number of the chairs straight off. Too small.

I have just tried again today with measurements taken directly off the rail parts themselves plus 0.2mm of additional spacing all around, to try to account for light bleed that you get on resin printers. The result of this was better, in that the rails did slot, but this time the chairs were not quite tight enough to hold the rail securely in place and the rail could actually be twisted out of the mountings. Too large.

So I'm printing another test part tonight (along with some other model parts) that has only 0.1mm of additional spacing all around the rails.

I shall report further progress, as it happens and will share the working settings once I discover the right combination!

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Brief update: The 0.1mm extra spacing version was better, but still not quite tight enough. I'll try again, using matching dims of the rails themselves, with no extra this time.

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Another brief update: With little time to play with these so far this year, I've only managed to try eight different sets of settings. I've gotten pretty close now - but there is still an issue.

When I insert the rails into the chairs on my test B8 turnout they go in fairly well, and as long as you are very careful you can avoid snapping any chairs off - which is very easy to do. However, the final alignment of the rails does not stay straight - they seem to want to twist in the chairs, with the rail head pushed slightly inward on both sides compared to the feet. I don't think it's the chairs themselves, but something is causing it.

I'm planning to make a jig that holds the rails perfectly straight at the ends, in the hope that this help the rails align properly along their length as they pass through the turnout (about 160mm here).

Once I can get the rails aligned consistently I intend to glue them in place with a tiny drop of CA wicked into each chair. When I can achieve that it will be the first time I'll be able to get a true bead on just how strong - and ultimately reliable - these track bases can ultimately be made in N gauge.


Anyway, here are my current settings. The values that have been changed are clearly indicated.

The prints are currently done flat on the build plate of a Elegoo Saturn 2 printer, though the same should be possible on any that have the same 8K 10.1" screen. I'm also using the "STL for CAD" export option as I'm seeing no shrinkage on any of my parts with a mix of 85% Elegoo Grey 8K and 15% Siraya Tech Tenacious resins.

Please feel free to try these settings, and if you can improve on them, please share your changes for all to benefit!

Ross.

---=== Templot v2.43.a - 3D Print Settings for N Gauge Turnouts ===---

1. Real > Rails > No Rails
2. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Experimental Chairing
3. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Chair jaw options on this template ...
a. Export all chairs with solid outer jaws and keys
b. Apply Changes
4. Real > Chairing / 3-D > A Chair
a. With Crossing Gap Spacer = UNCHECKED if don't require NX chair under frog
b. With Vee Spacer / Nose Clamp = UNCHECKED if don't require NC chair under frog
5. Save track to Background
6. Background > Templates (Open Storage Box)
7. Delete any irrelevant templates
7b. Close Storage Box window
8. DXF / STL file export ...
9. Reset All - CAD 2D / 3D
10. Show Settings:
a. Export:
i. Export Format: 3-D for CAD - *** SELECTED ***
b. Rail:
i. Set custom rail dimensions as needed:
Name: = "2mmSA C40 BH"
Overall section height = 1.22 mm (default = 0.98 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Head width = 0.52 mm (default = 0.47 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Rail-head corner radius = 0.09 mm (default = 0.09 mm)
Foot width = 0.55 mm (default = 0.47 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Web thickness = 0.18 mm (default = 0.13 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish centre from top = 0.61 mm (default = 0.33 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish centre from bottom = 0.57 mm (default = 0.23 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish angle 1 = 2.75 mm (default = 2.75 mm)
OK
c. Chairs Plugs/Sockets:
i. Include chair plugs = TICKED
ii. Blind Sockets = TICKED
iii. CLIP - fit = SELECTED
d. Timbers:
i. Timbering Sizes ... :
3-D full timber depth (thickness) = 1.67 mm (default = 1.67 mm)
3-D timber web / flange depth (thickness) = 0.10 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D timber side flange width = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
3-D timber end flange width = 0.86 mm (default = 0.86 mm)
3-D timber web integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D timber flange integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D width of rebate around sockets = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D depth of rebate around sockets = 0.06 mm (default = 0.06 mm)
OK
ii. Timbering webs and sprues ... :
3-D web width normal = 2.06 mm (default = 2.06 mm)
3-D web width flexi-track = 1.37 mm (default = 1.37 mm)
3-D sprue depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.99 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D sprue length = 3.09 mm (default = 3.09 mm)
3-D sprue width = 0.69 mm (default = 0.69 mm)
3-D sprue runner width = 1.37 mm (default = 1.37 mm)
OK
iii. Brick splints / slabs ... :
3-D brick splints depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D brick splints width = 1.54 mm (default = 1.54 mm)
3-D brick slabs depth (thickness) = 0.49 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS SETS
3-D brick label tab width = 2.57 mm (default = 2.57 mm)
3-D brick label tab text height = 0.31 mm (default = 0.31 mm)
OK
iv. Brick connector clips ... :
3-D connector clip overall depth (thickness) = 0.50 mm (default = 1.80 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D connector clip bottom depth (thickness) = 0.36 mm (default = 0.36 mm)
3-D connector clip bottom offset = 0.30 mm (default = 0.30 mm)
3-D connector tommy bar corner relief = 0.08 mm (default = 0.08 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar end clearance = 0.00 mm (default = 0.00 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar side clearance = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D connector clip hole size = 1.00 mm (default = 1.00 mm)
OK
e. Supports:
i. Include chair supports = TICKED
ii. Chair Supports ... :
Chair support pyramid height = 0.22 mm (default = 3.00 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Chair support pyramid top inset from centre = 0.34 mm (default = 0.34 mm)
Chair support pyramid top end inset from plug = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
Loose-jaw support pyramid height = 0.10 mm (default = 1.00 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Shrink gauge for multi - spacing = 0.69 mm (default = 0.69 mm)
OK
11. Export DXF / STL File > Save
12. Open STL in 3D Builder
13. Import and Repair the file.

 

[njee20]

I've been dabbling in this on and off for a bit, and shamelessly stole Ross's settings from above as a baseline. Must say I'm astonished at how well it came out. I was expecting the chairs to be extremely brittle, but they're surprisingly robust. I had planned to try threading the rail prior to curing, so the chairs would 'shrink' around the rail, but actually they were much too floppy prior to curing, so that was a non-starter. Also not really a problem in reality. I don't seem to have had the issues with the rail twisting. This is C&L Code 40.

Printed on a Saturn 2, using a mix of Siraya Fast and Sunlu ABS-Like. I didn't print flat on the plate, as I didn't want the layers running longitudinally through the print, strikes me as a weakpoint for the chairs. Tilted to ~30 degrees.

I didn't expect it to really work, so rails were just filed by eye, and don't line up too well. Ultimately I'd like to make it work with FB rail. I can accept the chairs are about an unobtrusive as possible, but I would like to find a way to remove the chair plates so the rail bottom sits flush on the timbers. Haved shoved a wagon through it succesfully, but will try and test properly with something in due course.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Impressive results Nick!

Can I ask; is there really much difference between Siraya Fast and Sunlu? They're both ABS-Like resins, so I would have expected them to be rather similar to each other. If the Sunlu makes a significant difference to the Fast (which I already have) then it might be worth the investment.

As for removing the chair bases, take a look at Martyn's response #9380 above, in this topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/n-gauge-plug-track-question.781/post-9380

He showed that the chair base can be removed. It looks like by adjusting the thickness of the rail bottom, should allow the resulting gap to be closed up again - but I would be concerned that you may end up making the distance between wheel flanges and the chairs even smaller and thus increase the chance of chattering - which is already an issue we need to watch closely with Code 40 rail.

Ross.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Since last I showed my settings - and Nick did his print - I have done a few further refinements, mainly in the Code 40 rail dimensions:

---=== Templot v2.43.a - 3D Print Settings for N Gauge Turnouts ===---

1. Real > Rails > No Rails
2. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Experimental Chairing
3. Real > Chairing / 3-D > Chair jaw options on this template ...
a. Export all chairs with solid outer jaws and keys
b. Apply Changes
4. Real > Chairing / 3-D > A Chair
a. With Crossing Gap Spacer = UNCHECKED if don't require NX chair under frog
b. With Vee Spacer / Nose Clamp = UNCHECKED if don't require NC chair under frog
5. Save track to Background
6. Background > Templates (Open Storage Box)
7. Delete any irrelevant templates
7b. Close Storage Box window
8. DXF / STL file export ...
9. Reset All - CAD 2D / 3D
10. Show Settings:
a. Export:
i. Export Format: 3-D for CAD - *** SELECTED ***
b. Rail:
i. Set custom rail dimensions as needed:
Name: = "2mmSA C40 BH"
Overall section height = 1.12 mm (default = 0.98 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Head width = 0.52 mm (default = 0.47 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Rail-head corner radius = 0.09 mm (default = 0.09 mm)
Foot width = 0.42 mm (default = 0.47 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Web thickness = 0.28 mm (default = 0.13 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish centre from top = 0.42 mm (default = 0.33 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish centre from bottom = 0.38 mm (default = 0.23 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
Fish angle 1 = 2.75 mm (default = 2.75 mm)
OK
c. Chairs Plugs/Sockets:
i. Include chair plugs = TICKED
ii. Blind Sockets = TICKED
iii. CLIP - fit = SELECTED
d. Timbers:
i. Dropper wire retaining ridges = UNTICKED
ii. Timbering Sizes ... :
3-D full timber depth (thickness) = 1.67 mm (default = 1.67 mm)
3-D timber web / flange depth (thickness) = 0.10 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D timber side flange width = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
3-D timber end flange width = 0.86 mm (default = 0.86 mm)
3-D timber web integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D timber flange integrity overlap = 0.04 mm (default = 0.04 mm)
3-D width of rebate around sockets = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D depth of rebate around sockets = 0.06 mm (default = 0.06 mm)
OK
iii. Timbering webs and sprues ... :
3-D web width normal = 2.06 mm (default = 2.06 mm)
3-D web width flexi-track = 1.37 mm (default = 1.37 mm)
3-D sprue depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.99 mm) - *** CHANGE ***
3-D sprue length = 3.09 mm (default = 3.09 mm)
3-D sprue width = 0.69 mm (default = 0.69 mm)
3-D sprue runner width = 1.37 mm (default = 1.37 mm)
OK
iv. Brick splints / slabs ... :
3-D brick splints depth (thickness) = 0.25 mm (default = 0.49 mm) - *** CHANGE *** >>NOT SAVED<<
3-D brick splints width = 1.54 mm (default = 1.54 mm)
3-D brick slabs depth (thickness) = 0.49 mm (default = 0.49 mm)
3-D brick label tab width = 2.57 mm (default = 2.57 mm)
3-D brick label tab text height = 0.31 mm (default = 0.31 mm)
OK
v. Brick connector clips ... :
3-D connector clip overall depth (thickness) = 0.50 mm (default = 1.80 mm) - *** CHANGE *** >>NOT SAVED<<
3-D connector clip bottom depth (thickness) = 0.36 mm (default = 0.36 mm)
3-D connector clip bottom offset = 0.30 mm (default = 0.30 mm)
3-D connector tommy bar corner relief = 0.08 mm (default = 0.08 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar end clearance = 0.00 mm (default = 0.00 mm)
3-D connector claw / bar side clearance = 0.03 mm (default = 0.03 mm)
3-D connector clip hole size = 1.00 mm (default = 1.00 mm)
OK
e. Supports:
i. Include chair supports = TICKED
ii. Chair Supports ... :
Chair support pyramid height = 0.22 mm (default = 3.00 mm) - *** CHANGE *** >>NOT SAVED<<
Chair support pyramid top inset from centre = 0.34 mm (default = 0.34 mm)
Chair support pyramid top end inset from plug = 0.51 mm (default = 0.51 mm)
Loose-jaw support pyramid height = 0.10 mm (default = 1.00 mm) - *** CHANGE *** >>NOT SAVED<<
Shrink gauge for multi - spacing = 0.69 mm (default = 0.69 mm)
OK
11. Export DXF / STL File > Save
12. Open STL in 3D Builder
13. Import and Repair the file.

 

[njee20]

Impressive results Nick!

Can I ask; is there really much difference between Siraya Fast and Sunlu?

Nope, Fast is the better resin, but it’s about double the price of Sunlu here, so I don’t tend to use it for testing purposes.

I would be concerned that you may end up making the distance between wheel flanges and the chairs even smaller and thus increase the chance of chattering - which is already an issue we need to watch closely with Code 40 rail.

Ross.

Not sure that’s much of an issue, you’re not changing the distance to the chairs, I just want the chairs to sit lower to the timbers.

I’ve done another print just changing the rail dimensions - increasing the foot width, but of course that just creates an unnaturally large undercut at the base of the chair, so I doubt it’ll work. I’d sooner not have to edit each chair individually if I can help it!

 

[Martin Wynne]

Not sure that’s much of an issue, you’re not changing the distance to the chairs, I just want the chairs to sit lower to the timbers.

I’ve done another print just changing the rail dimensions - increasing the foot width, but of course that just creates an unnaturally large undercut at the base of the chair, so I doubt it’ll work. I’d sooner not have to edit each chair individually if I can help it!

@njee20

Hi,

Welcome to Templot Club.

Why do you want the chairs to sit lower on the timbers? The existing chair base is correct to prototype, i.e. 1.3/4" thick, scaled.

Hi Ross,

The fish angle on all prototype UK REA bullhead and jointed flat-bottom track is 1:2.75 (not mm), but on most model rail sections it is likely to be steeper at around 1:1.5 . It is better to set it too steep rather than too flat to ensure the key fits correctly against the rail web.

Here again is the diagram showing how the rail section is dimensioned. The diagram is simplified from the prototype for practical small-scale modelling:

The fishing faces are dimensioned from their intersect on the rail section centre-line. The head and foot rail-side depths can then be derived if needed, but you don't need to enter them because Templot calculates them.

If you find your rail section difficult to measure, I suggest you leave it on the default EMGS rail section, which Templot will scale to match your current model scale:

cheers,

Martin.

 

[RBTKraisee]

Thanks Martin,
I started with the EMGS N-scaled rail sizes, but the Code 40 BH rail from 2mm Scale Association doesn't match. So I then tried with the exact measured dims from the 2mmSA rails. When I printed that track on a Saturn 2 printer with the chairs directly integrated, the rails snapped some of the chairs off as it was being threaded.

Since then I've been gradually refining the dimensions (I'm up to my 9th revision IIRC) and now I can thread this rail through fairly reliably. However, real world problems have been distracting me for the last few months and I just haven't been able to spend the time necessary to try all the tweaks that I want to try. Hopefully March will quiet down a bit and I'll finally get the opportunity to spend the time on this that it needs and deserves.

And Nick's use of an ABS-like resin for these track bases is also something I want to compare with my normal 85% Elegoo 8K Grey/15% Siraya Tech Tenacious resin mix.

I'm just glad that Nick has been able to get similar results. He has helped confirm for me that this technique IS going to work once it is refined appropriately!

Ross.