Experimental 3D plug track - up to version 244c

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

just a question will the DD chair have a fixed jaw option?

Click to expand...

Sure. Just change the tick boxes to whatever you want.

Where a single turnout is being constructed on the bench, I suspect that sliding the vee rails into place will be the easiest option. I will look at adding a button to change the relevant settings automatically.

Of course it's no good if you are building a crossover or a tandem turnout, or such like, or building a turnout in situ on the baseboard with other turnouts. That's the whole idea of the loose jaws.

The wing rails will always need to be loose jaws -- unless you put a break in the rails at the knuckle bend, as in the Finetrax kits.

Templot is a tool -- the idea is that you can change the settings to whatever you want.

If you click the option to print all solid-jaw chairs, and fit them in the timbering base, you would have the equivalent of a Finetrax kit. For preparing the rails, you can print the filing jigs for the required angles.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin Wynne said:

Of course it's no good if you are building a crossover or a tandem turnout, or such like, or building a turnout in situ on the baseboard with others. That's the whole idea of the loose jaws.

Click to expand...

Now that I do 100% agree with you, also your comment about it being a tool, however you over looked the "very good" part before the tool
phil

Martin Wynne said:

Templot is a tool -- the idea is that you can change the settings to whatever you want.

Click to expand...

@Phil G

p.s. There are so many settings that I can't possibly test everything thoroughly in all possible combinations. It would take forever and nothing would ever get released. That's where I rely on feedback to tell me where it's gone wrong.

Martin.

Martin Wynne said:

@Phil G

p.s. There are so many settings that I can't possibly test everything thoroughly in all possible combinations. It would take forever and nothing would ever get released. That's where I rely on feedback to tell me where it's gone wrong.

Martin.

Click to expand...

Martin, please don't worry too much about testing, just let us have the release and We (regular/super users) will happily test for You. Everyone should know by now that this is experimental, as well as free and therefore should not be expecting a bug-free program. I'm poised like an expectant father, this is a serious milestone.

Check chair test OO-SF
using Templot I designed an 11 sleeper section of track with a check rail one side (CC chairs).
I resin printed 2 of these sleeper bases with integral fixed jaws, and 2 separate bases with loose jawed chairs( but only one of the loose jaw sections was usable as I had an FEP failure)
Assembled the 3 usable ections to give me a 33 sleeper length.
All the modern RTR stock I have tried so far ran smoothly with no obstruction from any of the jaws(fixed & loos)
Steve

@Steve_Cornford

Many thanks Steve, that's very reassuring.

Thanks for taking the trouble to do it.

cheers,

Martin.

.
Just doing a bit of testing. This is a fully chaired F-20 turnout in EM. I've waited a long time to see this.

It's 750mm/30" long, so I'm not expecting to see many actually built!







I think maybe it needs more spacer blocks. Also it should almost certainly have a slab & bracket "A" chair. That's next on the list. Then the filing jigs.

cheers,

Martin.

.
Templot update version 241a is now on the server.

Your copy of Templot should update automatically if you restart it and follow the instructions. There is no need to uninstall your existing copy of Templot.

This is the first update which can create timbering and bullhead chairs for a full 3D-printable turnout.

If you have BOX files from earlier versions containing 3D templates, they may not load unchanged. You may need to repeat making some of the 3D settings.

The 3D chairing functions are now so complex that I can't be sure that I have fixed all the loose ends. In fact I'm sure I haven't -- there will be some quirks and discrepancies in this version. Please report any that you find. Many thanks.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,
Just to let you know that as I have Scalefour filng jigs I thought I would experiment with a B8 turnout as a starting point.
Steve

Steve_Cornford said:

Hi Martin,
Just to let you know that as I have Scalefour filng jigs I thought I would experiment with a B8 turnout as a starting point.
Steve

Click to expand...

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

Good! Are you going to resin-print the timbers?

One of the loose ends I didn't tie up was how to preserve the loose-pin slots right through the timbers if you print the chairs and plugs integral with the timbers. And how to support them and wash through the slots. That's what the "bed of nails" support is for. I think it should be doable if you change the dimensions of the bottom of the plug to match the timber thickness, change the plug dimensions to vertical sides with no tapers, and change the socket clearance to zero. But I haven't tried it.

Nor the cheese slicer to remove a bed of nails.

Otherwise separate chairs of course, but it seems a bit daft to be fitting resin chairs into resin timbers.

Or do you now have a laser cutter?

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,
No laser cutter, as I will outsource to a bureau if I go that route.

Yes I am resin printing the bases, but only for experimenting.

I am splitting the base into 3 sections.
I have lengthened the turnout to include an E1 timber so that I can add a clip that is not by the rail joints, but hit a snag.

As you can see the end flange of timber E1 has intruded into the socket on the X9 timber.
Just shows how jolly useful the 3d preview feature is
Easily fixed by dispensing with timber E1 (or I could try filing)

The other problem with resin printed bases is the elephants foot at the bottom of the sockets, but as there is a size constraint on resin bases compared to FDM bases, its probably not worth catering for a bottom rebate for now.

I dont posess your type of cheese slicer!

Steve

And here it is with E1 removed


I could also increase the depth of the timbers to allow for the elephants foot.
Anyway just producing this in resin so that I can test my ability to file the point & splice rails.
Steve

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

No need to remove E1, change it to a long timber, if that works in your track plan:



Making that screenshot has shown up a bug -- all the exit chairs are now S1J. Only the ones adjacent to the rail joint should be. Another entry in my notebook.

Elephant's foot shouldn't be a problem for the sockets, there is a taper on the bottom of the plug which should clear. The big problem for elephant's foot is the clips. There is a relief on the bottom of them, but it may not be enough.

Elephant's foot can be reduced by shortening the initial exposure time in the Chitubox settings, but it would need a lot of testing on a much smaller test piece first.

When I tied resin printing the timbers, about 9 layers vanished from the file and the timbers finished much thinner than 3.2mm. Did we ever get to the bottom of that? Are you seeing the same?

cheers,

Martin.

The fluorescent reminder of experimental chair/jaw status is useful.

Thank you Martin.

Thanks again Martin, I've learned something new today!
Exit track timbering
I will have a practice of that facility

I knew about the 3D clip bottom offset, which I change to 0.5mm

I will go and measure the thickness of the Check Chair test bases, 2 with integral fixed jaws, and one with loose jaw plug chairs.
Steve

Steve_Cornford said:

The fluorescent reminder of experimental chair/jaw status is useful.
View attachment 6243
Thank you Martin.

Click to expand...

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

If you move that clip one timber to the left, there will be less risk of the clip shank conflicting into the sockets. The S1J socket is very close to the edge of the timber. The clip size needs to overlap into the timber a fraction for strength, rather than just on the side flanges. Use the clip size mouse action to adjust (clip menu in the background shapes).

cheers,

Martin.

p.s. more info:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...mbering-brick-from-a-track-plan.295/post-4041



Martin.

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

I didn't properly respond to your post earlier today. Sorry about that.

When a web or timber flange is breaking into a socket, or obstructing something, you can switch it off. The timber-specific settings for 3D are on the shove timbers dialog, although they are nothing to do with timber shoving. It was just the easiest place to put them without writing a whole new function to select individual timbers:



If you untick the option for the TS end flange, the TS webs will go too. Those tick boxes will explain themselves if hovered over.

Without those end webs the E1 timber would be very weakly attached to the print, so what you can then do is draw on some splints to hold it at the TS end. You can draw them wherever you like to clear whatever else might be in the way:




Did you see my note about moving the clip -- the page changed just as I posted it?

I don't know how I'm ever going to collect all this stuff into a coherent user manual for plug track. I'm feeling a bit gloomy about it all today, it just seems overwhelming at times, and I can't put it off much longer.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,
Thanks for that.
Yes I did see your note.
I normally do use the adjust clip size, but had forgot to do so on that occasion.
Just need to unbox & setup Mars printer again, as the printing den is dual purpose.

I practiced the end flange removal using the heave timbers function on the switch end section of my LH B8 to give this result:-


Saves having to snip off the end flanges after printing before clipping to next section.

As this is resin printed and then stuck down after curing, I also reduce thickness of flanges to 0.5mm, and reduce width of end flanges to zero, giving above result.
I must stress again I am only printing bases in resin whilst I experiment and dither about going laser cut ply or FDM printed base direction.
Thanks for the tip Martin, it it probably also useful for an FDM printed base.
Steve

Thanks Martin - good to be back! though I have never been far away!

Yes I agree that the precision in the first couple of layers is not critical - rather that the issue can explain why getting a reliable shrinkage factor is more difficult in the z. Tim's other posts go into a lot of detail about the cause and effect.

I might have a small snag to report - I had a go at creating a 1 : 8.5 (in P32 as it happens - don't ask) and I spotted an error in the keying in the 2 chairs beyond the crossing (there are no keys). It just happens to be where I always look at everyone else's track as the 'inside' key here is a give away. Apologies if this is a c*ck-up on my part or if it has previously been remarked upon.

JFS said:

I might have a small snag to report - I had a go at creating a 1 : 8.5 (in P32 as it happens - don't ask) and I spotted an error in the keying in the 2 chairs beyond the crossing (there are no keys). It just happens to be where I always look at everyone else's track as the 'inside' key here is a give away. Apologies if this is a c*ck-up on my part or if it has previously been remarked upon.

Click to expand...

@JFS

Hi Howard,

That's intentional. Inside keying doesn't work for 00/EM/0-MF and many other wheel profiles in use. The wheel flanges clonk on the keys.

In Templot terminology it's a DD chair. When using the loose-jaw option the middle section is a loose insert, and slides in between the vee rails:



The CD chair is similar, but doesn't have the middle section because the rails are too close together to be practical. There is a variant of the BB chair on very short angles (<1:5) which does need the insert, but I haven't done it yet.

More about all this:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/post-7099

I realise that P4/S/S7 modellers are not going to be happy about the missing inside keys, and I will be doing something about that eventually. I can only do so much at a time. The slab & bracket "A" chair and the filing jigs are now the priority.

cheers,

Martin.

Thanks for clarifying Martin.

Hi all,

Firstly Martin - thank you for all your hard work here.....it is simply brilliant and now that the code is finished I am going to take my learning from different samples I have made and try and build a BH size D semi-curved flexible switch.....

Can I ask a question please that from memory may have been asked before by someone else but I cannot find it in the thread.

Q In the attached is it possible to engineer the return curve so that the Timber sockets are not hidden by the point exit?

BTW in answer to the subject of a user guide.....the intro that Steve wrote for me on some of the basics back in 10/07/2023 in this thread has been very useful. It does not cover the full turnout but it is a good place for anyone starting out on this journey to get to grips with some of the methods....

Hi Michael,

Looking at your screen shot you need to roll rails on the template PL189, to get the sleepers between the sleepers of the other template. I think the command is "control f4". Having made PL 189 the control template.

Another option is on template PL 189, use Real > Shove timbers...
On the timber nearest the turnout, Use twist & also crab functions* to align the two chairs with an imaginary extension of the corresponding timber on the turnout, then hide timber leaving the chairs dangling on the rail,
Then on the turnout template use shove timbers on that timber to extend it under the dangling chairs, this captures the chairs & creates sockets for them on the extended timber.
A little while ago in this discussion Martin also introduce me to the concept of "long timbers" on the exit road, but you would probably need to determine where the turnout template timbers ceased to interact with your PL 189 template, then on the turnout template, make a split at that point, then switch on long timbers, then back on template pl189 "twist & shout*" the necessary sleepers before hiding them.
Depends if your railway was happy using long timbers in place of two sleepers

Have you installed the 3D viewer that Martin recomended?
I cannot stress enough that having that "preview" function is really useful for checking things like obstructed sockets.

Steve

Hi Martin,
Just a question and please tell me if I have this wrong,
If I was making a crossover and wished to laser cut the timbers of both turnouts as the same time, IE all timbers are in there correct position with nibs holding them correctly apart is this possible in Templot? If not then I guess my choices are either make as two templates, and work out which timbers needed lenghtening and which needed hiding for each template. Or export out as a DXF file and merge them back into one one DXF file outside of Templot is that correct?
phil

I see the problem you are getting at, especially with interlaced timbers:-

Nibs & snibs overlapping timbers.
Can be overcome using non-interlaced extended common timbers I think,

Or export the DXF and use something like Inkscape above to edit & remove the unwanted ones.
ALso probably better to use equalised timbers when using laser-cut ply, else reduce socket (and plug width) a fraction.
Steve
ps just discovered that on my laptop if I have 2D DXF radio button selected in the export opyions & click preview it brings up Inkscape. Is that because I have .DXF associated with Inkscape I wonder?

Phil G said:

Hi Martin,
Just a question and please tell me if I have this wrong,
If I was making a crossover and wished to laser cut the timbers of both turnouts as the same time, IE all timbers are in there correct position with nibs holding them correctly apart is this possible in Templot? If not then I guess my choices are either make as two templates, and work out which timbers needed lenghtening and which needed hiding for each template. Or export out as a DXF file and merge them back into one one DXF file outside of Templot is that correct?
phil

Click to expand...

@Phil G @James Walters

Hi Phil,

Of course you can export/output track plans with long shoved timbers, multiple and partial templates, all in one piece. That's the whole point and purpose of Templot.

Please Phil. I've been explaining Templot over and over again for more than 20 years. I don't think I have the strength to go on explaining, explaining, explaining, over and over and over again for the rest of my days. I've got to find some way out of this bind so that I can get on with the coding stuff I enjoy, but I just can't see a way at present.

The purpose of the timbering brick sub-system is so that parts of multiple templates can be copied into a single "brick" unit for export, within a size output which will fit the desired machine:





For more about the brick functions, see this topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/extracting-a-3d-timbering-brick-from-a-track-plan.295/


For the laser-cutting, there is just no way I can properly develop the export functions until and unless I get a laser-cutter of my own to play with and understand. I really, really, don't want to have to do that but I fear it is inevitable. It will mean breaking off from Templot for several weeks while I prepare a safe place to install the damn thing.

In the meantime, if you don't want the nibs and/or snibs, turn them off. Untick the box or set the extent of the snibs to zero, or some shorter snibs extent that doesn't conflict with anything else:



I'm sure there was a series of posts with James not long ago about setting and using the nibs and snibs.

I seem to keep saying over and over again that if you don't want something, turn it off. Untick the box or set the combo to blank, or change the setting to zero, or whatever.

Unfortunately at present that nibs/snibs option applies to all the timbers in the export in one go. I can see that ideally you would want to be able to change the settings individually on each timber. That will come in time, but I just can't do everything at once. Sorry. I've kludged that for the flanges and webs for FDM 3D. In theory it would be easy to use the very same tickboxes to apply to the nibs and snibs when set to 2D export. But that would mean yet more stuff to explain over and over again -- explaining a tick box that means two different things at different times would never be enough just the once. Restricting the functionality of the code because I can't face the effort of explaining it is a sad state to be in, but that's where we are.

Until then, my guess is that you would want to leave the nibs on, but shorten the snibs significantly. But without my own machine I just don't know.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,
Maybe I did not explain my question very well, I know full well I can export out of Templot that was not what I was asking you.
My question was can you do more than a single template inside Templot when using plug track functions? thus outputting directly from plug track.
I don't want to turn the nibs off, what I was getting at was can I configure it to create the correct file in one smooth operation?
Please see attached box file, which incidentally I have just also found this file is to large to do a STL repair on anyway. so maybe that the limit I have to work with unless I purchase a copy of Form ware
Phil

PS I should also mention, I am talking about not having to use bricks. Maybe its as simple as you have to use bricks?
Phil,

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

If the STL won't convert online, just send it to me. I will do the fix and post it back. I've mentioned this several times and done such fixes for others.

My question was can you do more than a single template inside Templot when using plug track functions?

Click to expand...

Of course you can. Whatever is in the the storage box gets exported all in one file unless you change the settings. Could be hundreds of templates. What are you missing?

But you can't export the control template -- you must store it first.

You don't have to use the brick template functions, but it makes it a lot easier to fit your machine work area. A whole template might be bigger than your work area. The template boundaries are determined by the requirements of your track plan. The brick boundaries are determined by the requirements of your machine. That's two different things. Using the same boundary for both might not be ideal for either.

cheers,

Martin.

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Trying to understand what you are asking.

The bricks are primarily for the timber bases, laser-cut or FDM (or CNC).

For the chairs you mostly don't need the bricks. Generally just draw a raft rectangle around each switch heel or crossing area, and export each one separately. The rest of the chairs being interchangeable can be from stock. You can then arrange/clone the rafts in your slicer as convenient.

But the bricks would make it easier to switch individual rafts on and off along with their chairs when exporting a separate file for each.

You can export several such rafts in one file if you wish, but there will be a lot of blank space between them. Templot doesn't have any functions to bunch things together in the file. Is that what you are asking?

You could get round that by copying and dragging the templates into a blank area of the trackpad, and merging them into one another, and then drawing the raft, but it would be a lot of faff and a recipe for confusion, compared with arranging separate rafts in the slicer. In any event, rafts bigger than about 1500 sq.mm tend to cause difficulties in the printer.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Phil,
I have loaded your box file.
It contains two templates.
To laser cut ply timbers you can export both (all background templates) in one go using the "all background templates" radio button on the export dialogue. for example see this screen shot, which also shows that i have switched off nibs.
I have also removed most of the 2D colour choices (thus inhibiting the export of those set to blank)
I beleive this then just exports two layers in the DFX file , a sockets layer (inside cut) and a timber outlines layer (outside cut)
What do you use to view the DXF file?
I use Inkscape, an open source 2D file editor after reading about it on RMWEB which has got a tutorial discussion.

If you have a box file with lots of templates, and you only want to export a selection of them, just use the group function i the BOX, then select the "group templates only" radio button in the above screen.
I plan to experiment with laser cutting ply timbers but also separately cutting a cork trackbed that just has "sockets" and trackbed edges cut, then using the resin chairs to locate the timbers on the trackbed using the cork sockets.
But this is all a long way in the future.
Steve

Resultant export viewed in Inkscape, showing layer list.
"Kerfsock" is the "blue" sockets layer
"Kerftimb" is the "green" timber layer

Hi Martin
Would you prefer that we start another topic where we can discuss the 2D export options etc?
Because the 2D export to DXF has application beyond plug track. For instance can be used to laser cut timbers without sockets for use with Exactoscale chairs.
Steve

@Phil G @Martin Wynne
I find the nibs and snibs function to be a brilliant addition to Templot when it comes to laser cut timbering, and I'm really grateful to Martin for including it.
Previously I had been spending a lot of time outside of Templot in CAD achieving what I was after, the nibs/snibs function saves so much time. But, as with other features within Templot it did take some time getting to learn the exact settings to achieve exactly what I wanted.
This is not a criticism at all. The fact that so many options for fine adjustment exist is a great credit to Martin and his foresight in understanding that folks might all have different needs.
I have consciously not posted too much about my experiments as I haven't wanted to distract attention from the FDM/resin route whilst everything was/is still in the experimental stage.
However, I have laser cut complete formations of many templates and the ability to laser cut the timbering has worked to advantage for me. You can see some of my work here: In the video I don't show the work done in Templot with the nibs/snibs etc for the reason given above and as I did do some work outside of Templot.
However, I'm happy to put a post together on here showing exactly what I've been doing with it, with the proviso that my methods are likely not to be the most optimal. I'm still figuring this out too.

Martin, happy to do laser cutting for you if you'd like some experimental pieces to evaluate. I'm very happy to support the war effort in whichever way might be considered useful.

@Steve_Cornford, I agree that a separate topic might be useful. Also, given our geographical proximity maybe we could get together at some point and consider collaborating on a beginner's manual of some description with regard to the laser-cut stuff. Just an idea.

Best to all,

James

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

A possible light-bulb moment. I see your screenshot has a scrollbar on the right:



Is that because you have resized the window? Or because it doesn't fit on your screen?

If the latter, it's not surprising folks are getting a bit confused if they can't see all of the dialogs. I shall have to do something about it. It was my intention to scrap this entire dialog (dating from 1997) and replace it with new one(s) at some stage. Perhaps the time has come to do that. Scrollbars are ok if they are part of the original design, and the critical OK buttons, etc., are outside the scrolling panels.

cheers,

Martin.

@Steve_Cornford

p.s. Steve,

A short-term fix is to click the dialog-shrink button a few times:



With this result:



The dialog may be difficult to read at that size, but at least you can see all of it.

Almost all Templot dialogs have the shrink/enlarge buttons (in addition to the program size slider bottom right, which applies to all of them).

cheers,

Martin.

Thanks Martin,
One click was enough:-

My actual laptop screen is 31cm by 17cm.
I can always do the opposite clicks to get the endlarged text, or perhaps its rime to get my eyes tested again!
Steve