Experimental 3D plug track - up to version 244c

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,
Is it worth pointing out as per prototypical practice, as the turnout angle gets shallower, the number of special crossing chairs increase automatically, Which is why you have the BB, BC,CD DD and EF chairs. Maybe your covering this in latter posts
cheers
Phil,

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Yes, I shall be explaining all this stuff. But it takes time to write it, double-check everything, make screenshots, etc. I feel I'm being pushed to go faster than I want to go. We are only now turning our attention to creating a user guide.

I say "we" because I know James is planning to produce a video for those who prefer to watch a video rather than read instructions. And Steve is helping too. But it all takes time.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

Yes you can reduce the design size of the plugs in Templot (although not on that dialog).

But I strongly advise you not to do that. It can create lots of issues with the chair design, loose pin slots, and supports.

If parts come out the wrong size, the solution is to adjust the shrinkage settings:

View attachment 7089

If parts are too big, reduce the shrinkage allowance which Templot applies to them. Or make it zero or even negative. It needs trial and error to find the optimum setting for your own printer and print settings.

Bear in mind also that if you created the sockets as press-fit they will be smaller than any you subsequently create as clip-fit.

I also found that the Anycubic Water-Wash ABS-Like shrank rather less than the Elegoo resin. In practice the shrinkage is impossible to measure accurately because thick parts shrink more in proportion than thin parts. Prints also tend to shrink a little over time, so if they don't fit, one answer is to leave them for 3 months and try again.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin - I found out the hard way re the three month shrinkage.....I made a batch of chairs to try and get ahead of myself and now that I go to use them they have lost their elasticity :-( Going forward I will make what I need when I need it....!

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Michael Woods

p.s. Michael,

If prints are coming out too big, check that you haven't got anti-aliasing switched on in the slicer. A slicer program upgrade may have switched it on.

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

I have just come home from the pub and found a box labelled Alkaid, on the doorstep, I have put it in the boot of the car. I hope that when I open it on Monday, in the clubroom it will contain a 3d printer.

It said 2 day delivery and it was. No complaints, so far!

I opened the box this morning, and first impressions are very good, the only criticism so far is that when lowering the build plate,the stop button didn't seem to respond, a quick pull the plug did the trick, hopefully no damage done, the packaging groaned a bit though.

I didn't have a lot of time, as I'm trying to sort out a wiring problem on the club layout, that is at the Yealmpton show on Saturday.

 

[Martin Wynne]

when lowering the build plate,the stop button didn't seem to respond

@Phil O

Hi Phil,

The buttons repeat if held down, and don't stop until they have completed all the detected number of taps. Which is especially worrying when raising the plate manually because there is no limit switch at the top. The manual does warn about this.

The trick is to tap the button very lightly and quickly pull your hand away, so that only one tap is detected.

My little desktop CNC miller has the same problem. Possibly they both use the same low-cost controller board.

In normal use you hardly ever need to do any manual moves. Just press Print and leave it to sort itself out. If lifts up when the print is finished.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
On the picture of your batch of stacked chairs, the plugs below the chairs look very short.
Did you reduce the depth of the plug, and or other dimensions of the plug?

Also once printed, how long did you cure them after washing and before painting?

Steve

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Michael,
On the picture of your batch of stacked chairs, the plugs below the chairs look very short.
Did you reduce the depth of the plug, and or other dimensions of the plug?

Also once printed, how long did you cure them after washing and before painting?

Steve

Hi Steve I am using the same approach for printing as I use on my engines...all of which have been made using water washable resin with etched parts as appropriate.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/167606-brecon-and-merthyr-s-scale-locomotives/#comment-4602097

After printing I wash in a ultrasonic washer......for a couple of minutes then while still wet I drop in a pint beer glass full of water and cure for 2 mins. I do not use the ultrasonic cleaner with alcohol, it would probably go up in flames. This is why I am keen to get to water washable on the chairs. I am really impressed with this ABS like water washable resin.

The plugs are short, but for experimenting that has been fine, the chairs have fitted very snug in the timber.....

 

[Michael Woods]

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

Yes you can reduce the design size of the plugs in Templot (although not on that dialog).

But I strongly advise you not to do that. It can create lots of issues with the chair design, loose pin slots, and supports.

If parts come out the wrong size, the solution is to adjust the shrinkage settings:

View attachment 7089

If parts are too big, reduce the shrinkage allowance which Templot applies to them. Or make it zero or even negative. It needs trial and error to find the optimum setting for your own printer and exposure settings. If you make a significant change to the chair shrinkage you might also want to adjust the rail-fit settings to compensate.

Bear in mind also that if you created the sockets as press-fit they will be smaller than any you subsequently create as clip-fit.

I also found that the Anycubic Water-Wash ABS-Like shrank rather less than the Elegoo resin. In practice the shrinkage is impossible to measure accurately because thick areas shrink more in proportion than thin areas. Prints also tend to shrink a little over time, so if they don't fit, one answer is to leave them for 3 months and try again.

cheers,

Martin.

Martin - with the water washable ABS like I have gone to -1% shrinkage across X, Y and Z and the push fit in the "glue" possition are a very nice fit.... push in with the fingers and can be wiggled out if required.

 

[genixia]

If parts are too big, reduce the shrinkage allowance which Templot applies to them. Or make it zero or even negative. It needs trial and error to find the optimum setting for your own printer and exposure settings. If you make a significant change to the chair shrinkage you might also want to adjust the rail-fit settings to compensate.

I also found that the Anycubic Water-Wash ABS-Like shrank rather less than the Elegoo resin. In practice the shrinkage is impossible to measure accurately because thick areas shrink more in proportion than thin areas. Prints also tend to shrink a little over time, so if they don't fit, one answer is to leave them for 3 months and try again.

cheers,

Martin.

That doesn't surprise me. Lower shrinkage is a continuing goal of manufacturers, and most (all?) of the water-washables I looked at were claiming "lower shrinkage" (presumably relative to their older similar resins).

I can't think of a reason why less shrinkage could be anything but a good thing for us.

 

[Phil G]

I can't think of a reason why less shrinkage could be anything but a good thing for us.

The key for us is very consistent shrinkage, however lower initial shrinkage, once fully understood and dialed in. Is also a good thing for sure. I am still waiting of my Any cubic water washable, looks like its on the slow boat from China
Cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

Martin - with the water washable ABS like I have gone to -1% shrinkage across X, Y and Z and the push fit in the "glue" possition are a very nice fit.... push in with the fingers and can be wiggled out if required.

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

Just a reminder that as yet very few custom settings such as this are saved between sessions. Don't forget to change it each time you start Templot.

Saving settings is another task on the to-do list, and probably several days work. What fun.

I shall probably write a utility program to help me do it and avoid mistakes.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin really impressed by the work your doing here. Are there any plans to do four bolt chairs. I don't know how you incorporate the 3D drawings into Templot but if you are thinking of doing so let me know as I can supply you with the 3D artwork for the chairs. They will be based on Midland Railway design.

Thomas

@Paratom

Hi Thomas,

Thanks.

There is no such thing as a 4-bolt chair, despite being commonly so-called by modellers. A bolt is a 2-part threaded fastener having a separate nut. The GWR used 2-bolt chairs for plain track (inserted from below with the nuts on top), but all other chairs (including for pointwork on the GWR) are fixed using screws from above which bite into the wood rather than passing through it.

The REA* chair designs from 1925 which I have so far used for plug track use 3 screws for plain track (S1 and S1J chairs), and 4 screws for all pointwork chairs. See:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/rea-chair-types-and-designations-in-plug-track.738/

The REA cast-iron chair designs for bullhead rail are still in use today, 100 years later, almost unchanged. Which compares with the plethora of fixings for flat-bottom rail which have been used in the last 70 years.

Some pre-grouping (pre-1923) railway companies used 4 fixings for chairs. This typically comprised one chair screw and one trenail at each end, diagonally opposed.

A trenail is a hardwood nail, usually with a domed top, driven into a smaller hole. The advantage of a wooden fixing is that it does not rust, and trenails are commonly found as fixings on historic timber-framed buildings. Chair screws nowadays are hot-dip galvanized (zinc-coated) to prevent rusting, so trenails are not needed and have fallen out of use.

---

I haven't yet done any 4-fixing pre-grouping chairs for plug track, although I intend to do some eventually. There were dozens of designs, so it will never be possible to do them all. However, you will be able to enter custom chair details, so it will be possible to have chairs matching any prototype design in general appearance.

If you have artwork for Midland Railway chairs I would be very pleased to see it. Thanks. However, it can't be incorporated directly into Templot because that is not how Templot plug track works.

The chairs for plug track are each generated programmatically by Templot to fit where they are needed. They are stylised geometrical designs rather than a scale model of prototype chairs. That's because:

• All plug track rail is vertical for practical modelmaking, and the chairs are modified accordingly. Prototype check rails are vertical, but other rails are inclined at an angle of 1:20 to match the coning angle on the wheels (except the vertical flat-bottom pointwork designs used between 1970 and 2000). It is next to impossible to build model pointwork with inclined rail in the smaller scales, so we don't even try. If an inclined rail is curved or bent it needs to be held down with heavy fixings to prevent it straightening up.​

​

• Many model scales and gauges use a significantly over-scale flangeway gap, which has to be incorporated into the design of the pointwork chairs. It also means that in some locations fictional chairs are needed which don't exist on the prototype. Likewise they use an over-scale switch opening, which has to be incorporated into the design of the slide chairs.​

​

• Prototype chairs for pointwork fit the rail at specific locations only, and therefore require a timber under the rail at that location. In Templot there is a timber shoving function which allows the timbers to be moved from their prototype locations to avoid conflicts when trackwork is forced to fit in a cramped model space. When a timber is moved, the chairs it is carrying must be modified to fit the rails at the new location.​

​

• Also in fitting model trackwork in a cramped space, modellers often need to use non-standard crossing angles for which no prototype chair exists. Templot generates such chairs at any desired crossing angle as needed.​

​

• For practical computer reasons it is not possible to generate in model form all the fillet and blend curves and radii found in a typical chair casting. It would require a massive amount of computer memory to store such data for the hundreds of chairs on a typical track plan, causing the screen response to become extremely sluggish on most home computer systems. The chair designs are therefore simplified to a basic geometrical representation of the prototype.​

​

• The model chairs are intended for 3D printing. This imposes some constraints on the practical design of the chair to ensure trouble-free printing results.​

Before I can think of any non-REA chairs, such as the GWR chairs, I have to finish the full range of REA chairs including for K-crossings and the slab & bracket designs. So it is going to be some time before it will be possible to represent all prototype variants. There are also some folks hoping for flat-bottom rail fixings, so that is another challenge awaiting me.

*REA = Railway Engineers Association

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Davey]

Martin

The assistance from both yourself and Steve in both this and the new thread is much appreciated.

I am planning the layout in O-MF as I think this will best accommodate the eclectic mix of stock I have.

The sheer size of 7mm track makes 3d printing the sleepers a bit of a chore, so I plan to use laser cut timbering and resin print just the chairs. The files I have produced for the Mars 2 which I own will allow about a dozen chairs at a time on the print bed, so 8 or 9 prints for one B8 point! I have separated the chairs into groups using Meshmixer so I don't mix them up (hopefully)!

Really enjoying it though!

Davey

 

[Martin Wynne]

The files I have produced for the Mars 2 which I own will allow about a dozen chairs at a time on the print bed

@Davey

Hi Davey,

Good to hear you are enjoying your hobby. That's what we are here for.

I think you should be able to get a lot more chairs than that on the Mars 2 for 7mm scale. Off the top of my head I guess about 40 or 50? I have a Mars 2 myself and want to get to doing some 7mm stuff soon. I will see what I can do with a B-8 in 0-MF.

I'm planning to use FDM for 7mm timbers, but fully expect to be leaving the printer running for days on end. Strangely I find the slowness of FDM is part of its attraction. There's no rush to do anything, you can just quietly get on with some modelling or go for a walk while the printer chunters away in the corner of the room.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

The new layout for the Export screen is working well for me, thanks Martin.
Steve

 

[Paratom]

@Paratom

Hi Thomas,

Thanks.

There is no such thing as a 4-bolt chair, despite being commonly so-called by modellers. A bolt is a 2-part threaded fastener having a separate nut. The GWR used 2-bolt chairs for plain track (inserted from below with the nuts on top), but all other chairs (including for pointwork on the GWR) are fixed using screws from above which bite into the wood rather than passing through it.

The REA* chair designs from 1925 which I have so far used for plug track use 3 screws for plain track (S1 and S1J chairs), and 4 screws for all pointwork chairs. See:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/rea-chair-types-and-designations-in-plug-track.738/

The REA cast-iron chair designs for bullhead rail are still in use today, 100 years later, almost unchanged. Which compares with the plethora of fixings for flat-bottom rail which have been used in the last 70 years.

Some pre-grouping (pre-1923) railway companies used 4 fixings for chairs. This typically comprised one chair screw and one trenail at each end, diagonally opposed.

A trenail is a hardwood nail, usually with a domed top, driven into a smaller hole. The advantage of a wooden fixing is that it does not rust, and trenails are commonly found as fixings on historic timber-framed buildings. Chair screws nowadays are hot-dip galvanized (zinc-coated) to prevent rusting, so trenails are not needed and have fallen out of use.

---

I haven't yet done any 4-fixing pre-grouping chairs for plug track, although I intend to do some eventually. There were dozens of designs, so it will never be possible to do them all. However, you will be able to enter custom chair details, so it will be possible to have chairs matching any prototype design in general appearance.

If you have artwork for Midland Railway chairs I would be very pleased to see it. Thanks. However, it can't be incorporated directly into Templot because that is not how Templot plug track works.

The chairs for plug track are each generated programmatically by Templot to fit where they are needed. They are stylised geometrical designs rather than a scale model of prototype chairs. That's because:

• All plug track rail is vertical for practical modelmaking, and the chairs are modified accordingly. Prototype check rails are vertical, but other rails are inclined at an angle of 1:20 to match the coning angle on the wheels (except the vertical flat-bottom pointwork designs used between 1970 and 2000). It is next to impossible to build model pointwork with inclined rail in the smaller scales, so we don't even try. If an inclined rail is curved or bent it needs to be held down with heavy fixings to prevent it straightening up.​

​

• Many model scales and gauges use a significantly over-scale flangeway gap, which has to be incorporated into the design of the pointwork chairs. It also means that in some locations fictional chairs are needed which don't exist on the prototype. Likewise they use an over-scale switch opening, which has to be incorporated into the design of the slide chairs.​

​

• Prototype chairs for pointwork fit the rail at specific locations only, and therefore require a timber under the rail at that location. In Templot there is a timber shoving function which allows the timbers to be moved from their prototype locations to avoid conflicts when trackwork is forced to fit in a cramped model space. When a timber is moved, the chairs it is carrying must be modified to fit the rails at the new location.​

​

• Also in fitting model trackwork in a cramped space, modellers often need to use non-standard crossing angles for which no prototype chair exists. Templot generates such chairs at any desired crossing angle as needed.​

​

• For practical computer reasons it is not possible to generate in model form all the fillet and blend curves and radii found in a typical chair casting. It would require a massive amount of computer memory to store such data for the hundreds of chairs on a typical track plan, causing the screen response to become extremely sluggish on most home computer systems. The chair designs are therefore simplified to a basic geometrical representation of the prototype.​

​

• The model chairs are intended for 3D printing. This imposes some constraints on the practical design of the chair to ensure trouble-free printing results.​

Before I can think of any non-REA chairs, such as the GWR chairs, I have to finish the full range of REA chairs including for K-crossings and the slab & bracket designs. So it is going to be some time before it will be possible to represent all prototype variants. There are also some folks hoping for flat-bottom rail fixings, so that is another challenge awaiting me.

*REA = Railway Engineers Association

cheers,

Martin.

Thanks Martin. If you need a hand on the 3D chairs let me know.

Thomas

 

[Martin Wynne]

I think you should be able to get a lot more chairs than that on the Mars 2 for 7mm scale. Off the top of my head I guess about 40 or 50? I have a Mars 2 myself and want to get to doing some 7mm stuff soon.

@Davey

Hi Davey,

90 7mm chairs on the Alkaid build plate:

54 S1 ordinary chairs
36 P slide chairs

Packed a bit closer than we might like, but it demonstrates that they can be made in reasonable bulk for 0 gauge even on the little Mars/Alkaid printers. The support pyramids need to be a bit higher, these will need a beefier pair of cutters than the little electronics snips.

To keep things practical I might need to revise my recommended raft maximum up to 2000 sq.mm. instead of 1500 sq.mm. Some testing needed -- and the Alkaid may differ from the Mars.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[genixia]

The sheer size of 7mm track makes 3d printing the sleepers a bit of a chore, so I plan to use laser cut timbering and resin print just the chairs.

You might want to look into 0.6mm or 0.8mm nozzles for your printer to see if either can give you acceptable results in O-MF. In theory, a 0.8mm nozzle in O should give you similar print paths (and hence times) to 0.4mm in OO.

Even if you end up laser-cutting, the feedback would be useful, I'm sure.

 

[Martin Wynne]

You might want to look into 0.6mm or 0.8mm nozzles for your printer to see if either can give you acceptable results in O-MF. In theory, a 0.8mm nozzle in O should give you similar print paths (and hence times) to 0.4mm in OO.

Even if you end up laser-cutting, the feedback would be useful, I'm sure.

@genixia

Hi Ian,

Been there, got the T-shirt. This is 7mm/ft scale timbers and chairs FDM printed with 0.6mm nozzle:

Peco rail.

That was 5 years ago, see the Templot Club archives:

https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_3307.php#p26418

But I got disheartened with the poor quality of the chairs, despite many hours spent tinkering about with them, and the results when trying to do them in FDM in 4mm/ft scale were just awful.

Several years passed by, the cost of resin printers fell, and then it dawned on me that if the chairs could be resin-printed separately from FDM-printed timbers the results should be a lot better. So I got a small resin printer to see what was possible. The very first printed chairs were a revelation, and got me going again on 3D output from Templot.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[genixia]

@genixia

Hi Ian,

Been there, got the T-shirt. This is 7mm/ft scale timbers and chairs FDM printed with 0.6mm nozzle:

But I got disheartened with the poor quality of the chairs, despite many hours spent tinkering about with them, and the results when trying to do them in FDM in 4mm/ft scale were just awful.

Several years passed by, the cost of resin printers fell, and then it dawned on me that if the chairs could be resin-printed separately from FDM-printed timbers the results should be a lot better. So I got a small resin printer to see what was possible. The very first printed chairs were a revelation, and got me going again on 3D output from Templot.

cheers,

Martin.

To be clear I wasn't suggesting printing the chairs with FDM! They absolutely need to be resin. With the resolution needed to do the detail justice they would take forever in FDM, even if consumer printers were capable of it. From where I'm sitting those timbers look usable though.

 

[Martin Wynne]

To be clear I wasn't suggesting printing the chairs with FDM! They absolutely need to be resin. With the resolution needed to do the detail justice they would take forever in FDM, even if consumer printers were capable of it. From where I'm sitting those timbers look usable though.

@genixia @Davey

Hi Ian,

They are usable, and that's what I'm intending to do. Although not with a 0.6mm nozzle.

Rather belatedly I realised that the size of the nozzle is largely irrelevant. It is the rate of flow of filament through the extruder and the speed of travel of the head which controls the quality of the print. Changing the nozzle size changes the accuracy of polymer placement and dimensional tolerances, but not by very much. The critical factors are the flow rate, speed and layer height.

In the latest update 241d there is an option to enter the measured filament diameter, and Templot will adjust the expected wall thickness accordingly.

I shall be posting my slicer settings and details in due course. But one thing at a time, I can only go so fast at all this.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Martin - is there a safe way to reduce the depth of the plug without impacting the depth of the socket on the timbers?....my personal preference is to use a shorter plug on push fits and looking to automate rather than unnecessary snipping.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
Assuming you are exporting the timber base .STL in a separate operation from the chair .STL, I think that you could adjust the plug/socket depth parameters between the two exports to acheive your aims.
Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin - is there a safe way to reduce the depth of the plug without impacting the depth of the socket on the timbers?....my personal preference is to use a shorter plug on push fits and looking to automate rather than unnecessary snipping.

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

The depth settings for the plugs have no effect on the depth of the sockets. There are only 2 depth options for the sockets -- all the way through the timber, or blind sockets which don't quite go all the way through. That doesn't apply to laser cut timbers of course. If you use blind sockets you must take care to trim the bottom of the plug carefully and not leave any rough remains of the support pyramid. I haven't found any need for blind sockets, or even tested that they are still working ok, but the option is there if needed. I can imagine it might be needed if plug track is used on a garden railway, but that is a whole new unexplored subject at present.

For press-fit plugs you can set the depths to whatever you want. For clip-fit plugs I recommend not messing with the depths because it might wreck the working of the side tangs:

There are several depths and widths to change. If you are using loose jaws I strongly recommend that you don't reduce the inset widths. Also with loose jaws reducing the overall plug depth will make the loose jaws very difficult to use with shortened pins.

I suggest that you don't reduce the taper start depth, otherwise accurate chair gauging and positioning might be affected.

p.s. like most of plug track at present, none of these settings are preserved across Templot sessions. You will need to enter any changes every time. That's another massive task awaiting me.

p.p.s. if you set conflicting dimensions, such as inset start less than taper start, the results are unpredictable and you may not get a usable STL file.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Michael,
Assuming you are exporting the timber base .STL in a separate operation from the chair .STL, I think that you could adjust the plug/socket depth parameters between the two exports to acheive your aims.
Steve

Thank you Steve

So if I just change the plug depth below from 3.08 to (example) 2mm that should work or should I change both the 3.08 and the 3.22 accordingly. I am just a little cautious in changing settings that I do not understand as

@Michael Woods

Hi Michael,

The depth settings for the plugs have no effect on the depth of the sockets. There are only 2 depth options for the sockets -- all the way through the timber, or blind sockets which don't quite go all the way through. That doesn't apply to laser cut timbers of course. If you use blind sockets you must take care to trim the bottom of the plug carefully and not leave any rough remains of the support pyramid. I haven't found any need for blind sockets, or even tested that they are still working ok, but the option is there if needed. I can imagine it might be needed if plug track is used on a garden railway, but that is a whole new unexplored subject at present.

For press-fit plugs you can set the depths to whatever you want. For clip-fit plugs I recommend not messing with the depths because it might wreck the working of the side tangs:


View attachment 7133


There are several depths and widths to change. If you are using loose jaws I strongly recommend that you don't reduce the inset widths. Also with loose jaws reducing the overall plug depth will make the loose jaws very difficult to use with shortened pins.

View attachment 7135


I suggest that you don't reduce the taper start depth, otherwise accurate chair gauging and positioning might be affected.

p.s. like most of plug track at present, none of these settings are preserved across Templot sessions. You will need to enter any changes every time. That's another massive task awaiting me.

p.p.s. if you set conflicting dimensions, such as inset start less than taper start, the results are unpredictable and you may not get a usable STL file.

cheers,

Martin.

Thank you Martin and Steve.....determined to try and build a layout with Plug Track. Having built some track and a point, now going back round again to make sure that I have optimised all the settings before the next stage of construction. I may appear to be going backwards but it is an iterative process to make sure that I do as much testing as possible. Time spent now will hopefully prevent time wasted in the future.

I appreciate it is experimental but that is why it is interesting....

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
Just to clarify your methods & materials.

Are you FDM printing your timbers?
If so what filament? PLA+?
Are you using Clip-fit or Press-fit chairs?
What resin? ABS-Like? Water Washable or IPA washable?

If you have used the default settings, what problems are causing you to want to override the defaults?

I believe when you first started experimenting only Press-fit chairs were available and any timbering bases produced then would not have the Clip-fit recesses included.
Steve

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Michael,
Adjust both the "effective" and the "break-off" depths by the same amount.
But why, unless you are also reducing depth of your timbers.
If you are FDM printing the timbers the Clip-fit is the better option, I would recomend you try it, but just use the defaults.

Also did you ever send Martin a sample of the S society rail?
It would be useful for Martin to measure etc and then he could add that code option to the [rail] tab

Steve

 

[Michael Woods]

Hi Michael,
Just to clarify your methods & materials.

Are you FDM printing your timbers?
If so what filament? PLA+?
Are you using Clip-fit or Press-fit chairs?
What resin? ABS-Like? Water Washable or IPA washable?

If you have used the default settings, what problems are causing you to want to override the defaults?

I beleive when you first started experimenting only Press-fit chairs were available and any timbering bases produced then would not have the Clip-fit recesses included.
Steve

Hi Steve

I am FDM printing the timbers. Push fit chairs.....ABS water washable.

In S Scale I have found that the chairs were a little tight in the sleepers...that problem has been compounded by the water washable resin. Changing the plug depth plus making some changes to the shrinkage % has reduced the friction and this has helped me secure a nice fitting chair to timber.

So I am happy. What I am now going to do is to go back to making a point to test my settings on some of the larger chairs....

I like the press fits - it works for me....I am going to glue my track to the cork underlay so any risk that things move in the future will be removed.

Whatever I am doing gives me exactly the gauge so the mix of FDM sleepers plus resin chair config is giving me what I need.

That said I will try the clip fits again.....

 

[Steve_Cornford]

But beware shrinkage over time, although painting the chairs should give some U-V protection.

What curing time did you use after the wash? Just curious, as I have not used water washable ABS like yet, but it does seem to be the way to go as far as odours are concerned.
Steve

 

[genixia]

@genixia @Davey

Hi Ian,

They are usable, and that's what I'm intending to do. Although not with a 0.6mm nozzle.

Rather belatedly I realised that the size of the nozzle is largely irrelevant. It is the rate of flow of filament through the extruder and the speed of travel of the head which controls the quality of the print. Changing the nozzle size changes the accuracy of polymer placement and dimensional tolerances, but not by very much. The critical factors are the flow rate, speed and layer height.

In the latest update 241d there is an option to enter the measured filament diameter, and Templot will adjust the expected wall thickness accordingly.

I shall be posting my slicer settings and details in due course. But one thing at a time, I can only go so fast at all this.

cheers,

Martin.

Right, the slicer adjusts the paths to put the walls in the right position for the edge to be correct to the model, at least insofar as it can. With more molten plastic being put down, the dimensional tolerance deteriorates. Corners and small details are where nozzle size are important - at a corner the outside shape is actually an arc, the radius of which is dependent on the nozzle size (typically, marginally larger because of layer squish, so a radius of 0.25-0.3mm for a 0.4mm nozzle).

Once you are inside of the walls though, the slicer infill settings determine the paths, and the slicer is relatively free to achieve that without worrying too much about visual quality.

Most slicers have independent wall settings for flow and speed, so we can speed up infill without affecting fit or finish quality. Unfortunately, timber bases are mostly floor, ceilings and walls with very little infill, so the speed up effect of that will be limited. I'm going to start tweaking inner-wall and floor speeds to see what might be done there.

 

[Phil G]

You need to join or contact the LNWRS:

Hi Martin,
funny you should say that, I was member for awhile, but was not getting much out of it. I think I should rejoin, especially now I am more interested in getting the trackwork detail more accurate than I was before.

Very strange question, is it possible to export the clip fit plug and the cast iron base part only from plug track? clearly the idea would be to draw my own LNWR chairs and then marry these to plug track plugs. As long as I could get these to merge in some form of slicer that maybe a quick fix.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Martin Wynne]

Very strange question, is it possible to export the clip fit plug and the cast iron base part only from plug track?

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Not a strange question at all. You will eventually be able to build up custom chairs to your own design, the whole plug track system is designed around that. But I haven't got there yet and some days I wonder if I ever will. It just means so much explaining, over and over again. I'm feeling worn out by it all.

At present you can do this:

Or add the screws, and/or the rail seat:

To omit one or both jaws or the seat, untick these settings for the chair size you want:

That's for the control template -- remember to store it, or click the modify group to match button. A group can contain a single background template.

The fictional 4-screw SC chair is intended to be the basis for most custom chairs.

To omit the the screws, clear the bolts/screws combo on the layers tab. But that will apply to the entire export. There is more work to be done in making it template-specific and/or chair-specific.

Having got what you want you can then add some jaws in a CAD program* or by gluing on bits of C&L injection-moulded chairs or bits of chairs which you have resin printed.

*But please, please, please, if you want to talk about CAD, do it in a separate topic. Not this one.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
You never cease to amaze me, looks like I can with a bit of playing around, already do exactly what i was hoping for.
Cheers
Phil
PS I like the way you almost mentioned the unmentionable words. That's exactly why I chose to use the word draw.
Next time I promises to go with *** if I am getting on thin ice

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Martin,
Sorry but here is another enhancement request.
On your post:-
https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...al-plug-track-continued.673/page-22#post-8187
you added the text ( these dims are for T-55 scale )
It seems to me that making that information display a feature on any parameter entry screen that was scale related (as you did in your example) would be a useful reminder.

I hope your firefox problem has receded.
Cheers Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,
Sorry but here is another enhancement request.
On your post:-
https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.p...al-plug-track-continued.673/page-22#post-8187
you added the text ( these dims are for T-55 scale )
It seems to me that making that information display a feature on any parameter entry screen that was scale related (as you did in your example) would be a useful reminder.

I hope your firefox problem has receded.
Cheers Steve

@Steve_Cornford

Thanks Steve.

Nothing has changed on that dialog for years, so here you go:

Will be in 241e.

Firefox not fixed and I'm now using Opera for Templot Club.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Thank you Martin.
Firefox on Windoze 10 and 8.1 pro is behaving itself for me at the moment.

Another suggestion....

On this screen, would it be better if the chairs only - resin 3D button was at the top of the list?
That way the two 3D options would be together, but also the two timbers options would be together.
Oh and C comes before T

You can tell its past my bedtime!

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

Thank you Martin.
Firefox on Windoze 10 and 8.1 pro is behaving itself for me at the moment.

Another suggestion....
View attachment 7177
On this screen, would it be better if the chairs only - resin 3D button was at the top of the list?
That way the two 3D options would be together, but also the two timbers options would be together.
Oh and C comes before T

You can tell its past my bedtime!

Steve

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

That seems logical. My thinking was that you need the timbers before you can use the chairs! I will swap them round:

In 241e.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@James Walters

James has today released his review of the Alkaid printer:

Looking good! More info in this topic:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/3d-printers-messin-with-resin.103/post-8270

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

Martin and James,

Excellent video, I look forward to the next one.

 

[Davey]

Managed some play time this afternoon and printed a raft of O-MF S1 chairs and did a trial fit in a laser cut sleeper. Excellent results. I won't get another chance to make anything for a fortnight now but, having discovered what is possible, I can foresee lots of planning ahead! Thanks for all the advice and, of course, the software.