Experimental 3D plug track - up to version 244c

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
Its a bad screen shot they are the P1 to P4 chairs plus I think an L1 and an S1
by the way for a transition switch can I use STD, P chairs or should these also be individually printed?
cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,
Its a bad screen shot they are the P1 to P4 chairs plus I think an L1 and an S1
by the way for a transition switch can I use STD, P chairs or should these also be individually printed?
cheers
Phil

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

Well they look to be all S1 and L1 to me!

What do you mean by "transition switch"?

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil,
I agree with Martin.
Here for example of LH B8 turnout 1P to 4P chairs which are on timbers S7 to S10 inclusive:-

Also note that a RH B8 is completely different so you can't use a LH B8 raft for a RH B8 turnout.
Steve
edited to correct chair designation

 

[Martin Wynne]

P1 to P4 chairs

@Steve_Cornford

Hi Steve,

To avoid confusion, these are designated 1P to 4P chairs.

There are more on longer switches, up to 11P on F switches.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[La Cathedrale]

I'm very sorry to ask what has probably been already addressed, but with three threads of 25+ pages it's a bit tough to index while all of this is still experimental: when should I be using loose versus solid jaws on my chairs? Thank you!

 

[James Walters]

Whenever you like would be the most straightforward answer.
In most cases, loose jaws are the simpler to work with, with the benefit that the rail can be 'dropped' in, without the tedious threading of chairs onto rails. Loose jaws also allow subsequent adjustment etc to be much easier.
I'd suggest experimenting with both, to see what works for you.
With the bits of plug track which I have been experimenting with thus far, I've standardised on the loose jaw option, for the reasons above.
However, the solid jaw option is nice to have, as there are no doubt situations where having a solid jaw might be helpful.

 

[Martin Wynne]

I'm very sorry to ask what has probably been already addressed, but with three threads of 25+ pages it's a bit tough to index while all of this is still experimental: when should I be using loose versus solid jaws on my chairs? Thank you!

@La Cathedrale @James Walters

Hi William,

The loose jaws are the default option and recommended. They allow track formations, simple or complex, to be built in the prototype manner by dropping the rail onto the chairs, one rail at a time, and then fixing it in place in each chair. The rail can have prototypical square ends and does not need to be chamfered, because the chairs are not threaded onto the rail. It also means the rails can be bent as required, such as at the wing rail knuckle, the switch set, the centre of K-crossings, check rail flares, etc.

If preferred the chairs can be printed with solid jaws, but then they do need to be threaded onto the rail, and where there are two or more rails in a chair, such as in the V-crossings, the assembly process becomes very tricky and fiddly and in some cases impossible.

Alternatively the solid-jaw chairs can be inserted in the timbering base first, creating the equivalent of a Finetrax kit. But that requires some departures from the prototype, such as having a break in the rails at the knuckle instead of a proper knuckle bend. Complex formations such as tandem turnouts, outside slips, etc. are difficult or impossible done that way.

If in doubt, use the loose jaws option.

cheers.

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Well they look to be all S1 and L1 to me!

Hi Martin,
I agree it was too late last night and my brain had given up.

re the question of loose or fixed jaws ( solid chairs), clearly its a matter of choice, however there is nothing wrong with using both on the same project. It does not have to be all one or all the other. All you need to do is have a prebuilt raft or two, of S1 or S1J chairs set to solid jaws, then print everything else a s loose jaws except the P chairs these can also be prebuilt as solid jaws.

This in fact can make sense, firstly for P chairs there is zero reason to add the extra work involved in printing the jaws loose and then adding them separately, as there is only the one jaw on these chairs anyway.

I have also found, and this does depend on the length of rail, that two solid jaw chairs at each end of the rail can be a very convenient way to hold the rail down when starting to add the loose jaws. In this application all except the last two chairs in the length being built are added as loose jaw chairs, then the two solid jaw chairs are slid on the rail, (best done with the chair still on the raft, but do it one at a time, I.e. thread chair, on the rail and cut chair from raft, then push the rail thought the second chair)

Its easy to check with only two chairs, that there both the right way round, and its easy to position the chairs correctly above the socket with there only being two. Push these home and the rails are now held securely with the rail being the right way up and in the right place for adding the loose jaws.
An alternative is to use cocktail sticks to hold the rail in place before starting to add the loose jaws, that certainly does work, but I find its a case of double handling, which I don't see the need for.
Its personal choice though.

I would not personally advocate solid jaws in all cases however, I do agree pushing loose jaws in is preferable to threading all the the chairs onto the rail first.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Martin Wynne]

This in fact can make sense, firstly for P chairs there is zero reason to add the extra work involved in printing the jaws loose and then adding them separately, as there is only the one jaw on these chairs anyway.

@Phil G @Dessire_Luvals

Hi Phil,

It's a bit counter-intuitive.

If all the other chairs are loose-jaw, it's convenient to make the P slide chairs solid-jaw.

If all the other chairs are solid-jaw, it's necessary to make the P slide chairs loose-jaw -- unless you pre-fit all the chairs in the timbering base and slide the rails in from the end.

The settings are there so that you can do whatever you want.

I suspect that a lot of the methods preferred for building single turnouts won't transfer for building complex formations and junctions, and that for those most folks will end up going for 100% loose-jaw. e.g. for a plug track version of something like this:

Thanks to Russell D for the pic.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
I agree with your comments about the P chairs, I still see no reason when using predominantly loose jaws that P chairs should be mandatorily the same. I wasted a whole evening adding loose jaws to P chairs, the next time I tried solid P chairs and it was sooo much quicker and less fiddly.
By the way stop teasing us, with pictures of diamonds and three way turnouts
cheers
Phil

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Phil
Have you tried assembling a V and wing rails yet?
Steve

 

[Phil G]

Hi Steve,
no because I currently cant even get the 1 in 12 vee jig to work, that is still a work in progress.
Its tuned out the settings for a tighter angle are not the same as for a shallower one. Martin has a very plausible reason for this, which I am currently working on.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Martin Wynne]

@James Walters

More buttons and boxes coming in 243a.

Creates a raft of the non-interchangeable switch heel block chairs.

Someone else will have to write the explanations because I've reached my keyboard limit for today and need to rest my arm. It should be mostly self-explanatory:

If the L1 fill box is ticked (it is on by default), the empty spaces on the raft are filled with standard interchangeable L1 chairs, just as a convenience to save resin. The next chairs beyond the block chairs are normally several L1 chairs, so it will be convenient to have a few on the switch raft.

To get the loose jaws, click the modify group to match button:

Martin

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
I have to say all these additional buttons to make template splitting so much easier, are very cool thanks for doing this.

I have also found mixing chairs with slots for the loose Jaws, and the loose jaws themselves on the same raft, has an unexpected negative issue. In that by the time the raft has been vigorously washed to clean the resin out of the slot, several of the fragile jaws and keys has snapped off the raft. as a result I am now printing them separately,
cheers
Phil

 

[LassUnsSchaun]

@James Walters

More buttons and boxes coming in 243a.
...

View attachment 7998
...




View attachment 7996
...

Martin

interposing a question:
Is there a way inplied for naming printing rafts on the print itself?
So if you print a bunch you would directly and certain know which turnout it is, for example "№1", "LH B8", ... and what side is ment to face in what direction "left/right", "north, east, south or west", "towards fiddle yard", ... after curing.

 

[Martin Wynne]

interposing a question:
Is there a way inplied for naming printing rafts on the print itself?
So if you print a bunch you would directly and certain know which turnout it is, for example "№1", "LH B8", ... and what side is ment to face in what direction "left/right", "north, east, south or west", "towards fiddle yard", ... after curing.

@LassUnsSchaun @James Walters

Hi,

Yes, it's possible:

However, it involves adding a brick splint as a brick label in the background shapes.

It's too clunky and experimental to write it up here for new users, it will all change eventually to a proper user interface -- we aren't there yet. This entire project is still an unfinished work-in-progress.

Search for "brick label" if you want to try it.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil O]

Hi Martin,

You showed us how to do it in one of the last couple of zoom meetings.

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
243a is now on the server.

Restart Templot to update.

Zoom meeting at 8pm UK time tonight (Monday) to discuss any issues arising.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[BetweenTheTunnels]

A question if I may. My resin and FDM printers have now arrived, although still in their boxes, probably until I finish work for Christmas, although I am waiting on a rail delivery so that I can measure the track dimensions.

However, this is more on etiquette really. Ive designed a short test bed layout in Templot. Four points and some straight track in 3mm scale. Is it ’the way’ to copy each template, adjust the settings add tags (or connectors) and then print individually, or adjust the original templates that were drawn on the plan? Is there a right or wrong way? Is one easier or harder?

Martin, I’ll ask you about adding the rail dimension, how and where, once ive got some rail to measure!

Cheers
Richie

 

[Phil O]

Hi Ritchie,

I would suggest that you watch last night's Zoom meeting, which covered that very topic. A brief description of what Martin showed us, was do group all templates, copy the group and then move them into the negative area below the datum line and the ungroup them. This prevents them being paper printed and allows you to work on them for 3D printing.

 

[Hayfield]

Ritchie

Like you I am new to the realm of 3D printing, I have no idea if you have any previous experience in printing but I have found rather than start running and start printing a layout, start with learning how to make single units. I am making bases in FDM both for turnouts and plain track. I am not saying these cannot be used on the layout, just learn the process of printing both bases and Jigs first

The recommended resin seems to be out of stock in the UK anyway, so it may be a case of learning FDM printing first

 

[Martin Wynne]

However, this is more on etiquette really. Ive designed a short test bed layout in Templot. Four points and some straight track in 3mm scale. Is it ’the way’ to copy each template, adjust the settings add tags (or connectors) and then print individually, or adjust the original templates that were drawn on the plan? Is there a right or wrong way? Is one easier or harder?

@BetweenTheTunnels @James Walters

Hi Richie,

There are two basic options.

1. Save a BOX file of your finished track plan. Keep this file as your track-plan file for future paper prints, more track planning etc. Then split your templates into your required timbering bricks to fit your FDM printer, laser-cutter etc. Save a separate BOX file containing your timbering bricks, chair raft templates, etc. Load whichever of these two BOX files you need for further Templot sessions, as required.

The above works best when your track plan is finalised, all timber shoving done, etc., and is not going to change. Making changes to the track plan later, and keeping the two files in sync might be a lot of work.

Likewise save two separate BGS3 files. One containing your normal background shapes for baseboard outlines, maps, etc. The other containing your brick splints, connector clips, labels, raft rectangles, etc.

---

2. Group all your track plan templates, and duplicate the group. Shift the duplicated group down into the negative-Y quadrant on the grid. Make your timbering bricks on the duplicated templates. Being in the negative quadrant won't affect the 3D export, but you will need to control which templates are exported by grouping them, or by using the brick colours. Unless you change the page origin, templates in the negative quadrants don't appear in printed paper templates.

You can move the duplicated group down into the negative quadrant by mouse action, but it would be better to use the group shift function:

so that you can shift the group by a known amount. You can then repeat this if necessary if you make any changes to the track plan templates.

Your background shapes can likewise all go in one BGS3 file. Those relating to the timbering bricks can be identified by the brick colour.

---

I can't emphasize enough that this whole project is still an unfinished experimental work-in-progress. It is my hobby -- nothing more.

All this stuff, and much else, will eventually be covered in a User Manual which is in preparation. But we are not there yet, in fact we are still a long way off. At present the only way is to plough through 2 years worth of topics and messages here on Templot Club as the project developed. Quite a lot may still get changed.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Steve_Cornford]

Hi Ritchie,
What make and model of printers did you get?
In particular what size are the beds?

Then we can suggest some calibration prints to get you going.
It is useful to print a plain straight section of trackbase and then measure the resultant dimensions & compare the results to the theoretical size etc.

It would also be useful for you to attach a copy of your current boxfile to a post on here so that we could give you some feedback on your design.

Steve

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

The Cura profile you wanted for the fling jigs is now at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/3d-printers-fun-with-fdm.277/post-9472

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Les Waters]

Hi Martin

Hope you are recovering well?

After seeing James Walters excellent Youtube videos on this new Templot development, it was all the encouragement I needed to get into 3D printing. Having prevaricated for several years about getting one I took the plunge. I am not regretting it.

I thought you and other Templot users, might be interested in my first 3D printed panel. The sleepers are O gauge at 32mm. I printed it on an Elegoo Neptune 4 Max using eSun PLA +. The bed on my printer is 420 X 420mm, the larger the better in my view for O Gauge track. I am very pleased with the results as the print only took 3 hours 15 minutes, which I thought was pretty fast. My next task on this learning curve is to print the chairs on my Elegoo Saturn 3 but that's for another day. It was all quite simple and straightforward. Thank you so much for this development.

All the best
Les

 

[Hayfield]

@Hayfield

Hi John,

The Cura profile you wanted for the fling jigs is now at:

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/3d-printers-fun-with-fdm.277/post-9472

cheers,

Martin.

Martin

Thanks for the file, I now need to try and remember what to do to transfer the file into Cura, which Hopefully I have done

I achieved it by

Firstly download the file Martin has uploaded into your Download folder

Once you have Cura open select the Print Settings page by pressing the hamburger symbol on the lower task bar
Clicking on the Profile box/tab, which opens a dialog box
Click manage profiles (at the bottom of the box)
which opened another box (Preferences), select Profiles
Then click the import button, (top right)
select Download folder
Then downloaded the CURA file required from from the download folder

This might assist others (hopefully I have got it correct !!) and it has loaded automatically in my CURA program.

Whilst it may be a bit of the blind leading the blind, I do have the 3 different Cura setting files in my downloads

185 degrees timbers
190 degree timbers
Jig settings

Happy to share as these work very well with my Kingroon printer

Edited after Phil's excellent help.

Any issues then ask someone who knows what they are doing, seriously message me or leave a comment and one of us will try and assist

 

[Phil G]

I think I achieved it by select print settings
Clicking on the Profile box/tab, which opened a dialog box

Hi John,
much appreciated that worked fine, the only thing I would add is in the attached photo I have highlighted the three horizontal slide bar icon which is how you access the profile menu.
from there your description is spot on.

cheers
Phil,

 

[Hayfield]

Phil

Thank you for that snippet, I have edited my post. If it helps others I am happy to add some screen shots

John

 

[Martin Wynne]

.
Changes now in 243a.

Just to make clear these two functions are not the same:

1. is intended for the creation of chairing rafts for 3D exports.

2. is intended for use in track design, primarily in tandem turnouts.

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

@Hayfield @James Walters

Following some photos posted by John and after tinkering with the filing jigs, I have made a couple of changes:

1. for the switch front jigs I have increased the default slope angle from 17.5 degrees to 20 degrees:

This will better protect the rail foot from being filed at the blade tip. This will be in the next program update. You can of course set this angle to whatever you want.


2. for any existing switch jigs, front and back, I now suggest applying a strip of sticky tape down the face of the jig at the working end of the jig:

This will allow the bolt at that end to be tightened without pushing the rail at that end up out of the groove, causing over-filing. I previously suggested leaving the bolt at that end barely more than loosely nipped, but that is very subjective and I suspect most users were likely to over-tighten it.

This is electrical insulating tape, which is 5 thou thick. So increasing the groove depth at that end by 10 thou. This won't significantly affect the accuracy of the jig, but will ensure that the rail can lie flat in the groove. The bolt at the other end can be fully tightened to ensure that the rail is prevented from moving.

This applies only to the switch jigs and does not apply to the crossing jigs.

I shall adding this top padding in the STL file in the next program update:

See: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/more-plug-track-developments.792/post-9749

In the meantime tape can be applied to any jigs which have already been printed.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[KHC1]

I’m reading it and anything else about 3D printing. I am also trying to sort out timbering blanks as well. Maybe in the future would it be possible to set a build plate size so that the blanks are automatically produced much in the same ways that happens when you hit print for a paper plan. However what you are doing is incredible and in the new year I will get my new resin printer working.

Keith

 

[Hayfield]

Martin

These improvements look to be a good tweak

I hope you will understand/ these comments make sense

The rail is on two angles in respect to the top of the jig. Whilst I can understand the bottom of the foot has to remain the full width, the side wall of the foot of the rail will be slightly affected by the file (we are talking about the last 2 or 3 mm) if nothing other than a bit of a shine

I will give your new method a proper trial tomorrow

AS I was in B&Q to buy some protective gloves I brought the following
30mm M6 bolts (i had 40mm ones)
M6 18mm wide washers (I had 30mm ones)
M6 locking washers

Will try these out as well

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,
On the subject of jigs, what is the purpose of the knuckle bend jig? Is it to find the correct centerline of the bend required in the wing rail? If so would I be right in assuming you measure from the vee end of the wing rail?

By the way for the much bigger switch filing jigs "E" and "F" size I have only just started to experiment with the "E" (now I can actually print them on the Elegoo Neptune 3) I am finding a small G clamp roughly in the middle, clamped from the center gap and held below the rail height helps) As the 2 x 6 mm bolts holes are too far apart to ensure the rail lies flat when filing on these bigger jigs.

cheers
Phil.

PS I have not yet found a way to print the F back jig (too big for my bed even at 45 degree rotation. I can get the F fronts in that way though) so on the "F" size I am only refencing what happed on the "E" size.

I am thinking of throwing the F back jig up off the horizontal Z plane to get it inside the build volume of an Neptune 3 pro.
just a bit worried that will negatively impact the filing groove. What would be your thoughts?

 

[Martin Wynne]

What would be your thoughts?

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

My first thought is "are you actually going to model an F switch"? Were there any F switches at Heaton Norris Junction? The LMS used F switches only in an F-20 turnout, which is a very long turnout in bullhead terms.

If you are, I suspect the design of the F jig could be shortened a little to make it printable on your printer. I will have a look.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Phil G]

Some photos
of E size jig ready to go

the last one is an M6 coach bolt which I find works great although done right its a pain filing the square in the mud washer
cheers
Phil

 

[Phil G]

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

My first thought is "are you actually going to model an F switch"? Were there any F switches at Heaton Norris Junction? The LMS used F switches only in an F-20 turnout, which is a very long turnout in bullhead terms.

If you are, I suspect the design of the F jig could be shortened a little to make it printable on your printer. I will have a look.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,
An F switch in P4 just to make a nice extreme switch, was my thinking. Nice for a shelf display, and maybe loan to my local model shop. Noting local in this case means one of only two the the whole of the Auckland region. I doubt I will ever need to use it in a model layout.
cheers
Phil,

 

[Phil G]

H Martin,
Just a thought, do you know the correct rail start point for each rail jig? To be honest I am being a bit lazy, cause I could trig it out if I had too. However on the B back filing jig you have 20 mm for the end of the jig to the start of the rail giving a 29.3 planning length and 88 active clamping area and then the angle location section. all of which will get bigger as the sizes increase and the angle decreases and will clearly be much longer for the F size but it does ask the question. What are the correct distance from the edge of the jig to the start of the rail for each size? In the previous photo of the E size the rail starts at 36 mm from the edge of the jig but that's just by eye. You have listed the planning lengths of all the switches, but not the start points (unless I missed it) in other posts.

cheers
Phil,

 

[Phil G]

Hi Martin,

Just a question, I am trying to etch the correct location of the soleplate onto the right timber but I have noticed although Templot exports a layer called soleplate there is no vectors associated to that layer.

At first I thought it was something I was doing with the layers screen (still could be for sure) So as per first photo I striped it back to just rails, rail joints and soleplate all set to black, the second photo is the result I get as a DXF opened in *a* again no visible soleplate. Am I doing something wrong?

cheers
Phil

 

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,

Just a question, I am trying to etch the correct location of the soleplate onto the right timber but I have noticed although Templot exports a layer called soleplate there is no vectors associated to that layer.

At first I thought it was something I was doing with the layers screen (still could be for sure) So as per first photo I striped it back to just rails, rail joints and soleplate all set to black, the second photo is the result I get as a DXF opened in *a* again no visible soleplate. Am I doing something wrong?

View attachment 8108

View attachment 8109

cheers
Phil

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

The soleplate detail is included in 3D files only. That's because the soleplate is made of steel and wouldn't look right as plywood. I assumed it would be modelled in plasticard on plywood timbers, using a thinner ply timber (etched all over) or a lowered ply timber?

In the 3D files it's confusing, because the soleplate itself is actually in the TIMBER3D layer. The SOLEPLAT layer contains the toe timber which surrounds it:

It's done that way so that the soleplate is at the same level as the other timbers and captures the sockets.

cheers,

Martin.

 

[Martin Wynne]

H Martin,
Just a thought, do you know the correct rail start point for each rail jig? To be honest I am being a bit lazy, cause I could trig it out if I had too. However on the B back filing jig you have 20 mm for the end of the jig to the start of the rail giving a 29.3 planning length and 88 active clamping area and then the angle location section. all of which will get bigger as the sizes increase and the angle decreases and will clearly be much longer for the F size but it does ask the question. What are the correct distance from the edge of the jig to the start of the rail for each size? In the previous photo of the E size the rail starts at 36 mm from the edge of the jig but that's just by eye. You have listed the planning lengths of all the switches, but not the start points (unless I missed it) in other posts.

View attachment 8105
cheers
Phil,

@Phil G

Hi Phil,

You ask questions faster than I can prepare a reply!

5 minutes to ask a question. An hour to prepare a proper reply -- and at present computer work is painful.

These are the dimensions for the F switch back in 4mm/ft scale:

The critical dimension is the 1mm width of the narrow end of the upstand.

Using a 0.4mm nozzle that could be reduced to 0.8mm.

That would reduce the 220mm to 176mm, with a corresponding reduction in overall length. The 20mm at each end could be reduced to 15mm or 10mm.

It might then be possible to fit the jig on your machine, rotated 45 degrees, one part at a time?

Time for breakfast -- Saturday = scrambled egg, grilled mushrooms and tomatoes. Forget Templot.

Martin.